Which sequencer has the BEST midi implementation?

[memyselfandus]

Jan Hammer waxes poetic about his days with Opcode, and his frustrations since. It sounds wonderful by your description - very much a composer's approach to sequencing.

I think that is just nostalgia...

Probably

[memyselfandus]

Some quotes

Anybody remember Opcode's Vision as fondly as I do? The best part about it that hasn't been replicated in any other MIDI sequencing software that I'm aware of was the capability to record in "subsequences" (fully multitracked song segments as short as 1 measure long). Then, to construct a "song", you would string these subsequences together in whatever order made sense, reusing them as many times as you liked. Then Vision would play back the whole song arrangement. If you didn't like it, you could easily move the segments around until you had the perfect arrangement. You'd name the subsequences A, B, C, etc. Then to play a "song", you'd just type A B C C B B C F D E C C A (or whatever), and the song would play in that order. It was perfection. Nirvana. At least for the way I write music...not having the benefit of being a keyboard virtuoso, or knowing the perfect arrangement in advance.

Does any new commercial sequencer have this capability? If so, I will buy it TODAY.

I own DP4.5 and ProTools LE 7.3. Both have collected dust because I can't compose the way I want to.

Seems like most of the innovation of the past decade has been in audio recording/editing/plugins/effects, etc. Nobody, not even Apple's Garage Band, makes MIDI recording as easy as Vision was."

"
I still have my Studio Vision hooked up on a old G3 and Proteus Modules. I'm still salvaging projects in Midi file format to dump into Logic 9. I'm with you. I really enjoyed Vision."

"The ONLY thing that was close for me was FL Studio's playlist feature. Otherwise, none of the apps mentioned below (like Live, etc..) come close. FL Studio is PC only at the moment, unfortunately."

He said "Close" ^^^^ the other important thing is multiple time signatures which het messed up in FL..


"I also truly miss Studio Vision. It's audio to Midi capabilities have never been equaled. I could sample a spoken sentence and get an amazing amount of pitch bend info (i.e. inflection) from it. Even Melodyne which is purporetdly all about that sort of thing falls WAY short… I too went to DP from there and then Logic, never use them any more, just Ableton with lots of Plug-ins like MAX 4 Lve, Reaktor and Kontakt…some Rewired Reason for special moments :0. I mainly perform live thru the software so I'm not so interested in Linear editing but truly none of these can hold a candle to Visions MIDI editing capabilities…big steps backwards, like "Flowers for Algernon"..."


"I was blown away to read your post just last night. Studio Vision is the ONLY sequencing software I have ever used, and I have not used it since 1994, sad but true. It has been a monkey on my back for two decades. I've wanted to design my own studio and I couldn't imagine using anything but Studio Vision. I really want to know if you have found your answer. Is the best option now Ableton Live? I really wouldn't know. All I know is Studio Vision. I took a course at The Evergreen State College in 93/94 called Intro to Music Technology, but I didn't know that we were using something that was not only the first of its kind, but that would also become obsolete. Is this true? Is there really no way to build that old piece of Nirvana back together again? It's all I really want, and I've used nothing since. (We were also using Sound Designer for digital audio recording and editing.)I really can't say how much I appreciate your question, Dave, as well as the way you described the nice capabilities I once knew"



"Who created the first integrated audio and MIDI recording application? Digidesign? Steinberg? Emagic? No, Opcode, the Palo Alto‑based pioneers of MIDI sequencing on the Mac. Prior to Opcode's 1990 Studio Vision, you either locked your sequencer to tape, via SMPTE, or triggered playback of audio clips from samplers. It is, of course, a short step from inserting sample‑trigger notes in your sequence data to having the application call the audio clips directly — in fact, it's exactly the same process, other than that the integrated application can easily include graphic representations of the audio alongside the MIDI.

Opcode's Vision, one of the leading MIDI sequencer programs in 1989, was upgraded to Studio Vision by integrating it with Digidesign's Sound Tools hardware — a Nubus card‑based audio accelerator and hard disk controller. Yes, you read that right; the computers of 1990 needed DSP help just to process audio and get it on and off the drives. You couldn't do very much with the audio once it was there, other than basic editing (although the Strip Silence feature was a major innovation), and I/O was strictly limited until Digi developed multi-channel hardware, but it was clearly the future of music production and Opcode got there first. Where are they now? Bought by the Gibson guitar company in 1998, the brand and product line were terminated just a year later. Dave Lockwood"

Jan Hammer waxes poetic about his days with Opcode, and his frustrations since. It sounds wonderful by your description - very much a composer's approach to sequencing.

Very cool. the first part

[Gonga]

If you want to be a MIDI ninja, try the Tracktion2 demo before committing, to decide if you're one who hates it or loves it.

Does it recognise aftertouch yet..?

Can it generate bank change messages..?

Can it generate sysex messages..?

Does it have an event list editor..?

Does it have a dedicated drum editor..?

Can it transform MIDI data..?

Don't get me wrong, I think Tracktion is a nice program. But as you say, it's better for audio than MIDI.

SONAR. Cubase has more features, many of which are composition-centric, but SONAR has a better interface - less confusing - imo. It's really good with hardware...you can pretty easily write custom instrument files (*.ins) to dial up patches directly from the tracks view, and it has sysex handling, etc. I use a MOTU MIDI Express XT rack unit for my old hardware synths, and have my Roland JV-2080 with 7 or 8 expansion cards in my rack, my Alesis QS-8 with its cards, and my Korg Triton Extreme, and all I have to do is turn them on, and then I can dial up any preset right from the tracks view. It's really great for that. SONAR is old school, started out as a midi sequencer for DOS in 1987, then audio was added around early 90s? I think SONAR is the only DAW that has a built-in scripting language (CAL), to automate any task.

I switched to Cubase a couple years ago when SONAR couldn't handle U-He synth patch text well, figuring I would really like the added midi features. But Cubase is much more difficult to learn imo. I switched back to SONAR now that they fixed that U-He bug (it was a SONAR bug).

[Kalamata Kid]

Too bad that midi in DAW's has not progressed much in the the last 15
20 years. And in some areas it has lost ground as some earlier forum
participants have pointed out to Opcode's Studio Vision.

The midi mantle has to some degree been picked up
by VSTi midi effects. Look at Nora and Blue Arp and ...
Too bad that the VSTi midi fx cannot be opened as MFX
from the MFX list. They can only be used on an instrument
track which is good but would get added flexibility if they
were also included in with midi fx.

Right under Windows midi editing is done best by Cubase and Sonar a
close second. Did I miss anyone?

As for the Cakewalk MFX well only Sonar and Cubase do them.
Here we have three choices. MFX and propriety midi fx
and VSTi midi FX. Oh yea and piano roll midi editing and fx. We
all know Fl Studio is the champ on piano roll midi editing. Did I
miss anything or anyone here?

[ford442]

Cubase still.
Live is very cool seeming, but more geared toward 'live' performance. Cubase editing of MIDI is the best around for sitting and composing. Sonar, Cakewalk, Tracktion, FruityLoops, Logic, Reason, Orion Pro, and REAPER are all good tools, but I MUST have Cubase to sequence MIDI..

[squaredheads]

The midi mantle has to some degree been picked up
by VSTi midi effects. Look at Nora and Blue Arp and ...
Too bad that the VSTi midi fx cannot be opened as MFX
from the MFX list. They can only be used on an instrument
track which is good but would get added flexibility if they
were also included in with midi fx. ?

Sonar MIDI Fx is a pretty weird format and it would need a huge amount of work - it's normal the most of the plugins are only written only as VST/AU, since it's compatible with the 95% of sequencers, including Sonar. And, returning to the topic, there will be improvements... I'm working hard on it.

[vespesian]

Cubase. Note expression is pretty amazing - just wish more plugins used it. Input transformer/PLE are godsends, once you get your mind around them. Midi in Sonar seems primitive by comparison, esp. with multiple controller lanes (ugh).

[Kalamata Kid]

The midi mantle has to some degree been picked up
by VSTi midi effects. Look at Nora and Blue Arp and ...
Too bad that the VSTi midi fx cannot be opened as MFX
from the MFX list. They can only be used on an instrument
track which is good but would get added flexibility if they
were also included in with midi fx. ?

Sonar MIDI Fx is a pretty weird format and it would need a huge amount of work - it's normal the most of the plugins are only written only as VST/AU, since it's compatible with the 95% of sequencers, including Sonar. And, returning to the topic, there will be improvements... I'm working hard on it.

I was not saying the Nora should be available as an MFX. I not opposed to this but musicians will be better served if ether change the cakewalk MFX specs to allow all plugins with midi in and midi out or make an MFX wrapper that that will wrap VSTi midi fx.

PS Nora is next on my get list!

[aMUSEd]

Here's exactly what I have been looking for.. For about a decade. And these options were in studio vision in the 90's

"Complete sequences running nested inside other sequences. This way, you can have, for exemple, a sequence, written in 3/8 running inside anotjher sequence that has a base tempo, and tracks, in 4/4. It plays inside the 4/4 but stil in 3/8."

"Vision had a window where we could have several sequences open at the same time, and all active. Each sequence had a letter assigned to it. Also, the sequences could be triggered by MIDI. Each sequence could be triggered at the original pitch from the computer keyboard (by pressing the letter assigned to it) or could be "played" from the MIDI keyboard, if it was assigned to it.

You could also create a "sequence of sequences", which has its own master tempo, but each nested sequence runs as a "block" nested in the main sequence, but still has its own tempo track, etc. With that feature, you could create arrangements where you quickly drag entire sequences, one for the chorus, one or more for the bridges, one for the verses, one for the solos, and you could rearrange that very fast by drag and drop each "block". DP chunks work more or less the same way, but you cannot have more than one block active, while in SV these could be layered,

That's where people started to mess around, and sometimes created really crazy things.

The window where we had all the sequences opened at the same time is something that, AFAIK, still no other sequencer has, as of today. The closest thing to that is the "chunks" window in Digital Performer, but the way DP deals with "chunks" (a "chunk" can be an entire sequence) is not as advanced as Studio Vision (see above)."

can someone please confirm that these specific features are available in any daw or vst? It would make my year

Sounds like Reason's blocks:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec10/a ... h-1210.htm

[Kalamata Kid]

Cubase. Note expression is pretty amazing - just wish more plugins used it. Input transformer/PLE are godsends, once you get your mind around them. Midi in Sonar seems primitive by comparison, esp. with multiple controller lanes (ugh).

You had to remind me! Love Cubase but missing three important features.
ARA and two others.

Note expression! amazing. Cubase is the midi King in my book.

[mholloway]

nevermind.

[mholloway]

Here's exactly what I have been looking for.. For about a decade. And these options were in studio vision in the 90's

"Complete sequences running nested inside other sequences. This way, you can have, for exemple, a sequence, written in 3/8 running inside anotjher sequence that has a base tempo, and tracks, in 4/4. It plays inside the 4/4 but stil in 3/8."

"Vision had a window where we could have several sequences open at the same time, and all active. Each sequence had a letter assigned to it. Also, the sequences could be triggered by MIDI. Each sequence could be triggered at the original pitch from the computer keyboard (by pressing the letter assigned to it) or could be "played" from the MIDI keyboard, if it was assigned to it.

You could also create a "sequence of sequences", which has its own master tempo, but each nested sequence runs as a "block" nested in the main sequence, but still has its own tempo track, etc. With that feature, you could create arrangements where you quickly drag entire sequences, one for the chorus, one or more for the bridges, one for the verses, one for the solos, and you could rearrange that very fast by drag and drop each "block". DP chunks work more or less the same way, but you cannot have more than one block active, while in SV these could be layered,

That's where people started to mess around, and sometimes created really crazy things.

The window where we had all the sequences opened at the same time is something that, AFAIK, still no other sequencer has, as of today. The closest thing to that is the "chunks" window in Digital Performer, but the way DP deals with "chunks" (a "chunk" can be an entire sequence) is not as advanced as Studio Vision (see above)."

can someone please confirm that these specific features are available in any daw or vst? It would make my year

Sounds like Reason's blocks:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec10/a ... h-1210.htm

I had the same thought, sounds almost EXACTLY like Reason's Blocks system.

[xphen0m]

SONAR. Cubase has more features, many of which are composition-centric, but SONAR has a better interface - less confusing - imo. It's really good with hardware...you can pretty easily write custom instrument files (*.ins) to dial up patches directly from the tracks view, and it has sysex handling, etc. I use a MOTU MIDI Express XT rack unit for my old hardware synths, and have my Roland JV-2080 with 7 or 8 expansion cards in my rack, my Alesis QS-8 with its cards, and my Korg Triton Extreme, and all I have to do is turn them on, and then I can dial up any preset right from the tracks view. It's really great for that. SONAR is old school, started out as a midi sequencer for DOS in 1987, then audio was added around early 90s? I think SONAR is the only DAW that has a built-in scripting language (CAL), to automate any task.

I switched to Cubase a couple years ago when SONAR couldn't handle U-He synth patch text well, figuring I would really like the added midi features. But Cubase is much more difficult to learn imo. I switched back to SONAR now that they fixed that U-He bug (it was a SONAR bug).

Of all of the DAWs I've tried, I found Sonar's MIDI implementation to be really clumsy and cumbersome. Cubase just does it for me. Things that take multiple (or several) clicks in Sonar can be done in one click in Cubase. I find it just that much quicker.

This is the main reason why I did not renew my Sonar subscription, and will not until I've seen that they've improved in this area. I wanted to love Sonar, but the MIDI abilities there just completely killed the overall experience for me, since all of my work involves midi.

[memyselfandus]

Here's exactly what I have been looking for.. For about a decade. And these options were in studio vision in the 90's

"Complete sequences running nested inside other sequences. This way, you can have, for exemple, a sequence, written in 3/8 running inside anotjher sequence that has a base tempo, and tracks, in 4/4. It plays inside the 4/4 but stil in 3/8."

"Vision had a window where we could have several sequences open at the same time, and all active. Each sequence had a letter assigned to it. Also, the sequences could be triggered by MIDI. Each sequence could be triggered at the original pitch from the computer keyboard (by pressing the letter assigned to it) or could be "played" from the MIDI keyboard, if it was assigned to it.

You could also create a "sequence of sequences", which has its own master tempo, but each nested sequence runs as a "block" nested in the main sequence, but still has its own tempo track, etc. With that feature, you could create arrangements where you quickly drag entire sequences, one for the chorus, one or more for the bridges, one for the verses, one for the solos, and you could rearrange that very fast by drag and drop each "block". DP chunks work more or less the same way, but you cannot have more than one block active, while in SV these could be layered,

That's where people started to mess around, and sometimes created really crazy things.

The window where we had all the sequences opened at the same time is something that, AFAIK, still no other sequencer has, as of today. The closest thing to that is the "chunks" window in Digital Performer, but the way DP deals with "chunks" (a "chunk" can be an entire sequence) is not as advanced as Studio Vision (see above)."

can someone please confirm that these specific features are available in any daw or vst? It would make my year

Sounds like Reason's blocks:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec10/a ... h-1210.htm

Sort of but not the same. Although that's what blocks could progress into.

[CoolColJ]

Same thing can be done on Music-X on the Amiga, with the play sequence command inserted into any sequence/track

such a simple concept, and yet nothing really does it quiet the same these days....

basically You open a new sequence, add a play sequence command where you want it to start playing, and select which track/sequence to play from the main screen.
So it essentially becomes an arrangement.
But this sequence is also a normal sequence, so it can contain single or multi channel midi data as well.
Then you can play this sequence within another sequence/track by using the play sequence command, and keep nesting it as many times as you want.
While also being able to transpose them non destructively.
This way you can basically treat midi data/sequences as samples/loops in a way.

You can also trigger these sequences from the midi keyboard much like loops, and record a new sequence as you played it