Do you have to play an instrument?

[Emerald Tablet]

A computer can be an instrument but it needs an interface. A keyboard and a mouse is not a real time interface for music. A pattern grid and piano roll is not an instrument interface. To really PLAY an instrument you need real time control.

Robert

like a straw in a clarinet.

essential element - comes in different sizes and shapes and materials.

[Rabid]

I've never understood the "Ignorance can be beneficial" argument. The stupidest thing I ever read was someone one this forum stating "I don't listen to dead people's music" because it could effect their style. How can anyone be arrogant to the point of thinking they can reach a higher level alone than what has been achieved by 500 years of musical geniuses sharing knowledge? How do you know if you developed something new, or just repeated something that was common 100 years ago? Don't use knowledge as a chain that binds you to a style. Use it as a starting point to launch your ideas.

People don't fly higher by starting from the lowest point.

Robert

[nuffink]

That's much more like it, Remco. I know where I am now.

[pHz]

A computer can be an instrument but it needs an interface. A keyboard and a mouse is not a real time interface for music. A pattern grid and piano roll is not an instrument interface. To really PLAY an instrument you need real time control.

true enough ...

... but surely those interfaces are to be judged (with the exception of controller keyboards PERHAPS - depending on whether you use them as triggers or 'real' keyboards) as part of the instrument (in much the same way as the mouthpiece is part of a trumpet or the bow is part of a violin etc) ...

... as ive said for a while now i think THE biggest advance we are going to see in computer music in the near future is in the area of controllers / interfaces that are NOT based on conventional instruments ...

slainte rob

[Equilibrium]

I never denied that a computer can be a musical instrument. All I said is it is very different from traditional instruments. I have no problem with calling a computer an instrument, but it is different from a tradtional instrument. You can't play a series of tones on just a computer you need to use a keyboard. That's the difference, yes it is a huge difference. You could define a computer as an effects box, a compositional device an instrument, whatever you like. But, to my mind a computer is a computer, that's how I define it.

[nuffink]

I never denied that a computer can be a musical instrument. All I said is it is very different from traditional instruments. I have no problem with calling a computer an instrument, but it is different from a tradtional instrument. You can't play a series of tones on just a computer you need to use a keyboard. That's the difference, yes it is a huge difference. You could define a computer as an effects box, a compositional device an instrument, whatever you like. But, to my mind a computer is a computer, that's how I define it.

What was the last proper instrument to be designed? In your opinion, obviously.

[Rabid]

Well, I think my problems with computers at this point is the same problem I had with digital keyboards 15 years ago. Lack of true expression. If you play a sax you eventually learn how to growl and slur notes. Tonguing techniques and trills effect tone in wonderful ways once you master the instrument. Even a beginner on electric guitar experiments with bending notes and turning towards an amp to control feedback and rumble. While I can use a keyboard to control a trumpet patch on the computer, it does not come close to the expressive sound I can get from a real trumpet.

But let’s take drums. Something that can be replicated on computer to some positive extent. While I can use Reason to put together some nice beats it is nothing like sitting at a read drum set and releasing energy into my music. And THAT is my problem with computers. You can create music but you cannot release energy into the instrument. When playing drums or guitar or sax or many other instruments, that energy can build and sometimes you do unexpended and wonderful things. Without real time playing you loose that on a computer. That’s why I say you need a good musical interface and not just a keyboard and mouse. Otherwise the computer will be handicapped, or will be more like a music construction set rather than a real time instrument.

Robert

[Equilibrium]

I never denied that a computer can be a musical instrument. All I said is it is very different from traditional instruments. I have no problem with calling a computer an instrument, but it is different from a tradtional instrument. You can't play a series of tones on just a computer you need to use a keyboard. That's the difference, yes it is a huge difference. You could define a computer as an effects box, a compositional device an instrument, whatever you like. But, to my mind a computer is a computer, that's how I define it.

What was the last proper instrument to be designed? In your opinion, obviously.

You have inserted the word 'proper'. I said traditional. And, I don't know, I don't know much about the history of Western instruments, and I really don't care. I never said a computer wasn't an instrument, read what I write.

[nuffink]

read what I write.

Why? You obviously don't.

[nuffink]

Equilibrium,

Since I'm patently having trouble following your argument in this thread, hows about summing it up in a couple of paragraphs.

[moldofunker]

But let’s take drums. Something that can be replicated on computer to some positive extent. While I can use Reason to put together some nice beats it is nothing like sitting at a read drum set and releasing energy into my music. And THAT is my problem with computers. You can create music but you cannot release energy into the instrument. When playing drums or guitar or sax or many other instruments, that energy can build and sometimes you do unexpended and wonderful things. Without real time playing you loose that on a computer. That’s why I say you need a good musical interface and not just a keyboard and mouse. Otherwise the computer will be handicapped, or will be more like a music construction set rather than a real time instrument.

that's true only if you want the music to express your feelings

[whyterabbyt]

Rabid quoth I've never understood the "Ignorance can be beneficial" argument.

Perhaps a freedom from traditional constraints/mindset/attitudes/ideas can be beneficial. Its obviously not going to be causal, but that doesnt mean it cant be true.

How can anyone be arrogant to the point of thinking they can reach a higher level alone than what has been achieved by 500 years of musical geniuses sharing knowledge?

Is it always arrogance? Im pretty sure that that depends on your definition of 'higher level', and I doubt if that's a univeral constant.

How do you know if you developed something new, or just repeated something that was common 100 years ago?

Maybe you don't, but unless you study every musical style, throughout the entirety of history, thats actually still a risk anyway.

Don't use knowledge as a chain that binds you to a style. Use it as a starting point to launch your ideas.

Or alternately, use knowledge of something completely different as your starting point, and launch from there.

People don't fly higher by starting from the lowest point.

A lack of knowledge of traditional western composition is not necessarily 'the lowest point', y'know.

[VicDiesel]

I have no problem with calling a computer an instrument, but it is different from a tradtional instrument. You can't play a series of tones on just a computer you need to use a keyboard.

I got the impression that some people were calling a computer an instrument even if there's no (piano) keyboard attched. I disagree.

However, if you attach a piano keyboard....

That's the difference, yes it is a huge difference.

Nah, once you attach a keyboard to it I dont' see the difference with, say, an electro-pneumatic church organ where the bellows and pipes can be a hundred feet away from the keys, only attached with electrical wires.

No, I'm interested in these people who claim that novel controllers can turn a computer into a new musical instrument. I'm watching with great interest to seewhat they come up with.

V.

[VicDiesel]

What was the last proper instrument to be designed? In your opinion, obviously.

Theremin?

V.

[nuffink]

Wheremin?








Cheers Marty