Do you have to play an instrument?

[Shane Sanders]

I have no problem with calling a computer an instrument, but it is different from a tradtional instrument. You can't play a series of tones on just a computer you need to use a keyboard.

I got the impression that some people were calling a computer an instrument even if there's no (piano) keyboard attched. I disagree.

However, if you attach a piano keyboard....

That's the difference, yes it is a huge difference.

Nah, once you attach a keyboard to it I dont' see the difference with, say, an electro-pneumatic church organ where the bellows and pipes can be a hundred feet away from the keys, only attached with electrical wires.

No, I'm interested in these people who claim that novel controllers can turn a computer into a new musical instrument. I'm watching with great interest to seewhat they come up with.

V.

Theoretically, even if the computer is only supplying a single continuous note on its own (which one could trigger with a mouse), the user can then shape that note, re-pitch it, filter it, etc. such that the output is a performance. A mouse or a tablet (both commonly understood parts of a computer) would be all you'd need. That and a gui that expects a human interactor using a mouse. Right?

Now I'm not saying that's all I want to "play". I like my ztar (www.StarrLabs.com) and the power that comes from being able to capture a more traditional performance and then edit it into something more fulfilling.

[Equilibrium]

Equilibrium,

Since I'm patently having trouble following your argument in this thread, hows about summing it up in a couple of paragraphs.

Mate, you may have a passion for argument, fine. We have both made our points clear, what I've said does not lack clarity, it is perfectly grounded. If there is something specific you don't understand ask, I'm not going to write it again because you ask me to. I get where your coming from, fair enough that's your opinion, I've given you mine, clear enough. I'd love to do some role play law court / student debating society but I just don't care.

I started this thread because I honestly cared about this and have thought about it before, I wanted to know what each person thought , I'm not here to "Win/Lose" arguments.

PeAcE ouT

[Rabid]

... A lack of knowledge of traditional western composition is not necessarily 'the lowest point', y'know.

Ahhh, but I never said knowledge had to be traditional western composition. It does not even mean the ability to read music. If a painter never takes the time to learn how to mix colors then that painter will be stuck using only colors that can be easily purchased. If a musician has never been exposed to alternate tunings, then that musician’s music will be limited to diatonic and close variants. If you have never made a sax growl or held a guitar in your hand while controlling feedback then you will never know what you are missing when sitting at a computer clicking notes onto a piano roll. Of course you can always use audio loops created by someone else to add life to the music.

Robert

[tetraplan]

I am saying there is a difference between a computer and a traditional instrument, because there is. There is a huge difference.

No there isn't.

To be specific and "clever" and so on, the basic difference is you can play one and not the other. When I say `play` I mean a series of tone in real time. You cannot play Bach's 1st prelude on a computer.

Why would music have to be depending on "playing"?

What has music to do with "tone", or "a series of tone"?

Why couldn't one play Bach's first prelude on a computer?

Why would "playing" have to be in real time?

So you can define a computer as an instrument, well done, great word play. Yet regardless of pointless semantic arguments which do not alter reality in the least bit, there is a great deal of difference between playing a piece on the piano and masterbating in your bedroom on a VST instrument.

And now I'm gonna drag a grand piano out to a campfire and fart in a flute. Defensive reply away...

Learn more about music.
Learn more about computers.

Groet, Erik

[Hink]

... A lack of knowledge of traditional western composition is not necessarily 'the lowest point', y'know.

Ahhh, but I never said knowledge had to be traditional western composition. It does not even mean the ability to read music. If a painter never takes the time to learn how to mix colors then that painter will be stuck using only colors that can be easily purchased. If a musician has never been exposed to alternate tunings, then that musician’s music will be limited to diatonic and close variants. If you have never made a sax growl or held a guitar in your hand while controlling feedback then you will never know what you are missing when sitting at a computer clicking notes onto a piano roll. Of course you can always use audio loops created by someone else to add life to the music.

Robert

Your points are quite good. Believe it or not after years of standard tuning I started with alternate tunigs (that itself was along time ago...I'm so old.. ). What happens? My world opens up, some say I'm getting lazy....let me tell you once you've changed tunings and have to relearn where you scales and chords are based, old habits being hard to break, it's far from lazy. But trust me many guitarist still seeking proof they have talent will say I'm cheating...

[tetraplan]

A computer can be an instrument but it needs an interface. A keyboard and a mouse is not a real time interface for music. A pattern grid and piano roll is not an instrument interface. To really PLAY an instrument you need real time control.

When talking about computers, can people please forget about patterns and sequencers?
I can make real-time music on my computer with a mouse and a keyboard.
Or maybe just a mouse.
Piece of cake.
So could anyone else.

Groet, Erik

[pHz]

i know erik ...

... and ive been trying to say so for pages now ...

... but no-one seems to want to hear that fact

slainte rob

[Rabid]

A computer can be an instrument but it needs an interface. A keyboard and a mouse is not a real time interface for music. A pattern grid and piano roll is not an instrument interface. To really PLAY an instrument you need real time control.

When talking about computers, can people please forget about patterns and sequencers?
I can make real-time music on my computer with a mouse and a keyboard.
Or maybe just a mouse.
Piece of cake.
So could anyone else.

Groet, Erik

But are you happy with that method? Is it all it can be? Do you feel satisfied with that method or do you wish for something better? Making music with a mouse is like swimming while wearing blue jeans. It can be done, but if you ever swam with swimming trucks then the blue jeans suddenly feel restrictive.

Robert

[pHz]

http://www.ableton.com

http://www.audiomulch.com

http://www.plogue.com/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=28

http://www.crusher-x.de

(among others)

all allow music to be played live quite intuitively with just a (computer) keyboard and a mouse ...

... vive la evolution !!!

slainte rob

[Rabid]

Of course, with Ableton Live some one has to play sections of the music ahead of time, record it, and transform it into a loops or one shots. Then a second, ummm, musician?, can press keys on the computer keyboard and play those loops back in real time.

Robert

[aMUSEd]

So you can define a computer as an instrument, well done, great word play. Yet regardless of pointless semantic arguments which do not alter reality in the least bit, there is a great deal of difference between playing a piece on the piano and masterbating in your bedroom on a VST instrument.

My arguement was neither word play or semantics. It was that we need to expand our concept of what we mean by an instrument. An instrument is a tool for expressing musical ideas and feelings. The tool can be as simple as a stone that you bang on another stone or as complex as a synthesiser, computer or DJ mixing deck even.

Like all tools, the instruments we use to make music can be refined further (if we want) so as to more effectively enable us to give voice to our muses - or they can remain crude and channel our efforts in a different direction (sometimes banging on rocks is better to me than banging on a piano). So for example a computer can be set up well to make music - such as with a decent controller or input device such as say a Kaoss pad, or it could be relatively "crude" and you could still be using a mouse and simple tracker perhaps - but either way its as much being used as an instrument.

Its not what you use but what you use it for.

[tetraplan]

A computer can be an instrument but it needs an interface. A keyboard and a mouse is not a real time interface for music. A pattern grid and piano roll is not an instrument interface. To really PLAY an instrument you need real time control.

When talking about computers, can people please forget about patterns and sequencers?
I can make real-time music on my computer with a mouse and a keyboard.
Or maybe just a mouse.
Piece of cake.
So could anyone else.

Groet, Erik

But are you happy with that method? Is it all it can be? Do you feel satisfied with that method or do you wish for something better?

If the music I make at that moment demands it, or doesn't demand anything more, then yes, I am more than happy.
Sometimes the music I make demands a total lack of real-time input. If that's what the music demands, then yes, I am perfectly satisfied.

Making music with a mouse is like swimming while wearing blue jeans. It can be done, but if you ever swam with swimming trucks then the blue jeans suddenly feel restrictive.

Sometimes, it's not a matter of choice.

Groet, Erik

[progfusion74]

I don't think one can play a chord with a mouse, or use portamento, or have the fun of sliding ones fingers across a ribbon and modulating all kinds of parameters in real time while playing notes with the other hand, and maybe using both feet at the same time. Not saying its necessary, but I need to be able to do that. I mouse in notes too every not and then, especially for rhythm parts and sequenced sections, but in the end, even though I don't play really well, I like the tactility that my keyboard gives me

[pHz]

But are you happy with that method? Is it all it can be? Do you feel satisfied with that method or do you wish for something better? Making music with a mouse is like swimming while wearing blue jeans. It can be done, but if you ever swam with swimming trucks then the blue jeans suddenly feel restrictive.
Robert

again agreed ...

... but then people were quite happy playing hollow logs and not complaining that they didnt have a more expressive set of pearl forums (or whatever) to play ...

slainte rob

[tetraplan]

Of course, with Ableton Live some one has to play sections of the music ahead of time, record it, and transform it into a loops or one shots. Then a second, ummm, musician?, can press keys on the computer keyboard and play those loops back in real time.

Robert

I don't see a problem with that.
Besides, more often than not, the musician creating the loops is the same person that triggers/mutilates them in Ableton.

Groet, Erik