Waves central a complete bust!

[chk071]

I always send my laptop in wiped. It's not because I'm concerned about my files, I would never send it in without a backup, it's because I'm concerned that they'll blame the problem on some driver that I have installed.

That doesn't make sense at all, support will hardly be able to fix your computer without a OS installed. Actually it is very counterproductive to be able to reproduce the problem. And noone will blame you that you have some weird drivers installed. Sorry dude, you're really bringing up desperate straw arguments.

[robotmonkey]

I'm not saying that Waves is untrustworthy, I'm saying that I have no reason to trust them, those are very different statements. You don't either, unless you work for them, you simply don't know. That is a factual statement. You may choose to trust someone, but you don't KNOW that they're trustworthy. You are simply making a judgement based off of almost zero information.

We simply have different defaults. You have to earn my trust, you give yours freely.

There's a really great paper that talks about where security threats come from and presents a series of case studies, I wish I could remember the title. Most bank fraud comes from inside, the very people that some of you are arguing should be trusted, are not necessarily trustworthy. The upshot is, most security threats come from exactly this reversal of default attitude. You trust the bank, you trust Waves, you trust Bernie Madoff. In other words, the things that you think that you should trust when you have no reason to do so.

And yet you trust the bus driver to get you from home to work without thinking about that much, while, when looking at how bus drivers drive, you probably should not. Due to slippery roads there's been about 10 quite severe bus crashes in my area during the last couple of weeks. You trust the tech in the computer store to repair your laptop while there's a good chance he'll rummage through your files (there's innumerable known cases this happening) while there's no known case of hijacking someones TeamViewer session I could think of. You trust your antivirus software to keep your computer secure most of the time even though it is well known that most advanced malware can go undetected by all the major AV vendors for months or even years. You trust that the certificate that was used to sign the executable you downloaded from the net the other day is valid even though there's plenty of cases where stolen certificates have been used to spread malware. You trust your operating system to install all the updates without testing every single one of them while both MS and Apple have a long history of screwing up. You trust your wife has not been replaced by the aliens with the exact same copy when you where at work, as when you start to think about it too hard she did act strangely the other day, and said some strange sh1t, and maybe was not that excited to have sex with you. There's a lot of things we trust by default because it's more often reasonable than not, because if we start to think on opposite terms there's wouldn't be enough tin foil to make hats thick enough for everybody.

Of course when it comes to computer security, there's things you can do and check to verify if your trust is warranted. You do the risk analysis and evaluate all the possible benefits and dangers, but in the end there's always some risk that can't be avoided because it would just not be viable to do so, and you have to trust these things do not happen. Coming back to the car mechanic analogy, if you had to choose between an officially certified by manufacturer repair shop and some random mechanic in some hell hole garage, which is most likely to offer a better service? You might get a good mechanic in some small shady looking shop and a bad one in officially sanctioned one, but it's the question of odds.

You say you have a problem with Wave's network security. We do not know anything about it but it is reasonable enough to presume that a company of that size has some decent security in place. After all if you have that worry how did even dare to install any Waves plugins? Because, if I wanted to hack Waves users the most obvious way would be to infect their installers with malware code. It's definitely more effective method than trying to hijack Team Viewer sessions. And moreover, how do you even trust downloading software form small developers as majority of them probably have no network security in place except maybe some basic AV and firewall protection.

[robotmonkey]

The developer tools I used to debug central already told me that, so waves remote connection would've simply been molestation of my computer for no reason that the tech could've solved!

Which speaks to tech supports misguided arrogance and the kind of thing that I'm really concerned about. It's not that they're fishing around on a computer, it's that when they can't solve something, which in this case they won't be able to, they become more and more aggressive in terms of the things that they want to try to fix things. I'm not going to go into detail, anyone who's ever solved Windows problems knows the risks of increased mucking about at a system level.

Nope. Not to say anything about the OP but the people who have high opinion of their technological skills while being incompetent in reality, and who think they know the best, are the worst kind of for tech support to deal with. They are much worse than the completely innocently stupid ones.

[ghettosynth]

I always send my laptop in wiped. It's not because I'm concerned about my files, I would never send it in without a backup, it's because I'm concerned that they'll blame the problem on some driver that I have installed.

That doesn't make sense at all, support will hardly be able to fix your computer without a OS installed.

Seriously, are you just trying to argue? Obviously, I mean wiped and reinitialized as it came from the factory. I'm very specific about that when I work with them because they want passwords and I can tell them, you don't need them, it will come as it shipped from the factory and I will wipe and restore when it is returned. You should have grokked this clearly from the conversation where I point out that I tell apple that the machine has their software installed on it. Read more and argue less.

Actually it is very counterproductive to be able to reproduce the problem.

Sorry mate, never in my years of fixing shit have I ever needed the customer's software to debug a hardware problem. BTW: Neither has anyone else that I've ever had to deal with, once explained, nobody, to a vendor, has a problem with this.

As I've said, if you knew anything about how this is dealt with in secure environments it's SOP. I have friends who work in banking IT and no disk leaves their facility with any data or software on it.

You're out of your depth.

[chk071]

The developer tools I used to debug central already told me that, so waves remote connection would've simply been molestation of my computer for no reason that the tech could've solved!

Which speaks to tech supports misguided arrogance and the kind of thing that I'm really concerned about. It's not that they're fishing around on a computer, it's that when they can't solve something, which in this case they won't be able to, they become more and more aggressive in terms of the things that they want to try to fix things. I'm not going to go into detail, anyone who's ever solved Windows problems knows the risks of increased mucking about at a system level.

Nope. Not to say anything about the OP but the people who have high opinion of their technological skills while being incompetent in reality, and who think they know the best, are the worst kind of for tech support to deal with. They are much worse than the completely innocently stupid ones.

True.

[ghettosynth]

The developer tools I used to debug central already told me that, so waves remote connection would've simply been molestation of my computer for no reason that the tech could've solved!

Which speaks to tech supports misguided arrogance and the kind of thing that I'm really concerned about. It's not that they're fishing around on a computer, it's that when they can't solve something, which in this case they won't be able to, they become more and more aggressive in terms of the things that they want to try to fix things. I'm not going to go into detail, anyone who's ever solved Windows problems knows the risks of increased mucking about at a system level.

Nope. Not to say anything about the OP but the people who have high opinion of their technological skills while being incompetent in reality, and who think they know the best, are the worst kind of for tech support to deal with. They are much worse than the completely innocently stupid ones.

That's their concern, not mine. I can see that though, because it pierces their veil of incompetence.

Look, you are completely underestimating my experience. I have never had a problem dealing with the competent levels of tech support, e.g., server vendors, and that has been a major part of my work experience. The trouble comes with consumer tech support.

[chk071]

I always send my laptop in wiped. It's not because I'm concerned about my files, I would never send it in without a backup, it's because I'm concerned that they'll blame the problem on some driver that I have installed.

That doesn't make sense at all, support will hardly be able to fix your computer without a OS installed.

Seriously, are you just trying to argue? Obviously, I mean wiped and reinitialized as it came from the factory. I'm very specific about that when I work with them because they want passwords and I can tell them, you don't need them, it will come as it shipped from the factory and I will wipe and restore when it is returned. You should have grokked this clearly from the conversation where I point out that I tell apple that the machine has their software installed on it. Read more and argue less.

So what are we talking here, hardware or software problem? In either case, doing a factory reset (if even possible in the state the computer is) is not very helpful to pinpoint the problem. ESPECIALLY when there could be a driver/software problem.

[ghettosynth]

The developer tools I used to debug central already told me that, so waves remote connection would've simply been molestation of my computer for no reason that the tech could've solved!

Which speaks to tech supports misguided arrogance and the kind of thing that I'm really concerned about. It's not that they're fishing around on a computer, it's that when they can't solve something, which in this case they won't be able to, they become more and more aggressive in terms of the things that they want to try to fix things. I'm not going to go into detail, anyone who's ever solved Windows problems knows the risks of increased mucking about at a system level.

Nope. Not to say anything about the OP but the people who have high opinion of their technological skills while being incompetent in reality, and who think they know the best, are the worst kind of for tech support to deal with. They are much worse than the completely innocently stupid ones.

True.

How would you know, you've demonstrated incompetence a post ago. You couldn't read one post and infer that a computer had an OS. You are demonstrating the lack of reasoning skill that I would expect from a consumer level tech support.

[robotmonkey]

How would you know, you've demonstrated incompetence a post ago. You couldn't read one post and infer that a computer had an OS. You are demonstrating the lack of reasoning skill that I would expect from a consumer level tech support.

LOL, in addition of pulling some serious straw mans are you now going for ad hominems too?

[ghettosynth]

I always send my laptop in wiped. It's not because I'm concerned about my files, I would never send it in without a backup, it's because I'm concerned that they'll blame the problem on some driver that I have installed.

That doesn't make sense at all, support will hardly be able to fix your computer without a OS installed.

Seriously, are you just trying to argue? Obviously, I mean wiped and reinitialized as it came from the factory. I'm very specific about that when I work with them because they want passwords and I can tell them, you don't need them, it will come as it shipped from the factory and I will wipe and restore when it is returned. You should have grokked this clearly from the conversation where I point out that I tell apple that the machine has their software installed on it. Read more and argue less.

So what are we talking here, hardware or software problem? In either case, doing a factory reset (if even possible in the state the computer is) is not very helpful to pinpoint the problem. ESPECIALLY when there could be a driver/software problem.

Clearly, you aren't reading and comprehending. I expect a good tech to pay more attention to detail than you are. I stated explicitly that I would only send my laptops in for hardware problems and that I repair and build my own desktops.

Moreover, as a reminder, Apple had no problem with it, in fact, they preferred it, as would any competent tech. Seriously, your reasoning is terrible, you draw wide conclusions from data that you haven't comprehended and then you ask why I don't trust other people, like you ostensibly, to fix my machines? I think that should be pretty obvious.

[ghettosynth]

How would you know, you've demonstrated incompetence a post ago. You couldn't read one post and infer that a computer had an OS. You are demonstrating the lack of reasoning skill that I would expect from a consumer level tech support.

LOL, in addition of pulling some serious straw mans are you now going for ad hominems too?

You're out of your depth as well. You didn't acknowledge the obvious contradiction in your silly argument about malware, nor were you aware of the obvious case of submitting hardware for repair restored to a default state.

I'm not going to address your misconstrued assertions of fallacy. It would be a waste of time.

[ghettosynth]

..moved below nonsense...

[robotmonkey]

You're out of your depth as well. You didn't acknowledge the obvious contradiction in your silly argument about malware, nor were you aware of the obvious case of submitting hardware for repair restored to a default state.

It was actually you who made the silly argument about the malware by saying:

Incidentally, you contradict yourself. You're suggesting that my mistrust in their abilities isn't objective and then arguing that there are known cases where they install malware? Seriously?

Moreover it has been you who has been going on about not trusting Waves because their network might not be secure and because Team Viewer is not secure.

What I said was that it's very easy to install malware to computer by an offline tech support person while it's not that easy to do in live remote session when you are seeing everything that's going on. I also said that if you are so concerned about Team Viewer tainting your system (which is of course complete nonsense as it does not even need installation) because someone has breached Waves network, then you should be more concerned about downloading any of their software. And you should be horrified about downloading any software from small developers. But of course, in practice you are more likely to get infected by malware by visiting KVR than by letting a Waves tech connect to your system.

[ghettosynth]

It was actually you who made the silly argument about the malware by saying:

Let me quote you...

You are not reasonable at all by objective standards. You claim you have no problem with giving your laptop to tech for repair where he would have a full access to everything on your computer, could go through all your files, make copies of them, install malware and so (and this is documented plenty of happening) while you have a problem with Waves tech support remoting in where you can see and control everything he does. Not reasonable by any standard.

Except for the standard by which the laptop is restored to a factory state and then wiped on return. An obvious solution to that problem that anyone who has ever dealt with secure data should have thought about instantly.

You couldn't even come up with the solution to this problem yourself before you made an argument, or, you assumed that your opponent couldn't. That's like playing a game of chess as if it's checkers. Either way, it speaks to your abilities, either your reasoning skill, or your integrity, or both.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to win. This discussion has clearly demonstrated that allowing Waves to remote would have been a waste of time. The OP has demonstrated this, there is no solution. My approach would have prevented unnecessary risk and that's been my experience.

[ghettosynth]

...moved below the nonsense....