Sonimus Burnley 73 VS Waves Scheps-73 VS IK multimedia EQ 73

[Bouroki]

As for bx_console, did we not also establish that it does not actually model any saturation?

Correct, but it does have an EQ section and it's even easier to hear variances in components there.

Yes but you're not EQing all the tracks the same way anyway! You EQ until it sounds good which means that you will compensate by ear for the inaccuracies/variations of the EQ in any given channel. Ideally if you're competent/experienced enough then you should achieve the same results no matter which channel you EQ on.

[Burillo]

this makes my bullshit detector tick.

The harmonics will build up of course. The stronger the saturation, the more quickly this happens, makes sense right.

no it doesn't. that would only make sense if you're sending the same instruments through the same device. if you send different instruments through the same device, harmonics won't build up. harmonics can't build up if they're different from each other, you don't get the same harmonic by running a different source through the same device.

besides, as was established earlier, bx_console doesn't model any saturation at all. it only "works" when you use its processing. meaning, you can achieve the same result by just using different EQ's on different tracks.

[Bouroki]

I know, right? By this logic if you really want such a thing as "complementary harmonics" then you'd have each instrument within a song play in a different key, or hell even a different pitch calibration altogether - this way you're guaranteed no fundamentals/harmonics are building up getting in each others' way

I do get Simon's point but I'd rather have the best-sounding 1073 modeled and use that on everything than play a pointless lottery game. The point of vintage emulation in 2016 is to take the best aspects of vintage and get rid of the worst ones. That's what makes sense. What really matters is how you write and arrange your song.

It's a very peculiar and funny audio world. One man's "glue & cohesiveness & musicality" is another man's "muddy buildup". I love it!

[simon.a.billington]

this makes my bullshit detector tick.

The harmonics will build up of course. The stronger the saturation, the more quickly this happens, makes sense right.

no it doesn't. that would only make sense if you're sending the same instruments through the same device. if you send different instruments through the same device, harmonics won't build up. harmonics can't build up if they're different from each other, you don't get the same harmonic by running a different source through the same device.

besides, as was established earlier, bx_console doesn't model any saturation at all. it only "works" when you use its processing. meaning, you can achieve the same result by just using different EQ's on different tracks.

Look don't go by me. Do your own tests

[simon.a.billington]

I know, right? By this logic if you really want such a thing as "complementary harmonics" then you'd have each instrument within a song play in a different key, or hell even a different pitch calibration altogether - this way you're guaranteed no fundamentals/harmonics are building up getting in each others' way

I do get Simon's point but I'd rather have the best-sounding 1073 modeled and use that on everything than play a pointless lottery game. The point of vintage emulation in 2016 is to take the best aspects of vintage and get rid of the worst ones. That's what makes sense. What really matters is how you write and arrange your song.

It's a very peculiar and funny audio world. One man's "glue & cohesiveness & musicality" is another man's "muddy buildup". I love it!

Look take it or leave it. I just offered a different way to think about things. Don't shoot the messanger.

Do your own tests be obejective, but most importantly be constructive.

Pessimism doesn't help anyone syretch their mind and consider other alternatives

[Uncle E]

Yes but you're not EQing all the tracks the same way anyway!

Two areas where it does still matter:

1. Stereo tracks.
2. Stepped controls.

[Uncle E]

if you send different instruments through the same device, harmonics won't build up. harmonics can't build up if they're different from each other, you don't get the same harmonic by running a different source through the same device.

I agree it doesn't make a meaningful difference with lower levels of saturation. However, I think it matters with higher levels of saturation and possibly even when there's low levels of saturation across many tracks (the aforementioned build up). The harmonic series is the harmonic series, even if it's coming from different instruments, and that's why many high gain amp plugins sound pretty much the same no matter what guitar is used with them.

Anyway, feel free to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I've owned several great Trident, MCI, and Studer consoles so I'm pre-conditioned to appreciate what Brainworx was trying to achieve.

meaning, you can achieve the same result by just using different EQ's on different tracks.

True.

[jens]

Hello, Simon...

I appreciate your perspective, but aren't "harmonics" by definition straight multiples of a given frequency? Passing 50Hz through ANY saturating path will always generate at the very minimum 100Hz, 200Hz etc... or am I wrong?

If you say that, well, different gear will produce these harmonics at different amplitudes... well then that's the same argument we mean when we're saying that different instruments & timbres will give different harmonic responses even if they pass through the same gear. The difference between a bass and a guitar is WAY bigger than the difference between two preamps.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

[jens]

I did say it was "very subtle" and that over the course of a large number of tracks it becomes more apparent.

But what we mean is that the effect you describe is not subtle, but rather simply non-existant.

It's easy enough to test yourself. Get a very large session, stack an instance of the same "character" plugin across the mix and just use it for its harmonics.

The harmonics will build up of course. The stronger the saturation, the more quickly this happens, makes sense right.

Now swap a lot of those out with all different sorts of harmonic plugins. Of course the difference is also audible, they're different plugins after all, but it should sound less dense or muddy and be easier to work with.

You forgot to mention the most important point about this test:

You need to use an ABX-tool in order to avoid becoming a victim of expectation bias.

If I create two test-files according to your described method, are you willing to partake in a blind-test?

[simon.a.billington]

Well you only have to measure two of the same devices to see that they are different.

You only have to apply one device or plugin on every track and process that way, and then use different versions of the same devices/plugins with the same settings.

With a large enough track count there is a difference. It's the same mix with the same effective settings. You can simply A/B it, judge for yourself.

One of the central concepts behind a community is to share ideas, exchange information. This kind of thing really makes a pointless debate Which I didn't really want to get dragged into.

Essentially the only thing I'm saying is there is a difference and it CAN be beneficial to consider it while mixing. Whether you do or don't is up to you. I'm not trying to change your region

It's just an idea, that's all. A concept that people can feel free to test themselves, experiment with, build new ideas on or disregard completely. It's not like I've come here pedalling a new solution or a new piece of tech and I'm trying to convince you have to buy it because it's a game changer.

In fact no where at all did I even imply a game changer. Yet some of there responses make it seem like I just ran over someone's dog with a car!!

Really?!?

Ultimately, you either run with it or you don't. It's completely academic. It's not definitely something worth wasting our time debating over it.

And it really is detracting from the core point. Which plugin was better??

In case you missed it, I said they are all good.

[Zexila]

So let's recap, you come here and bring some GAS logic, people start questioning and getting into it and soon you become defensive and closed minded suggesting that we should be open minded about it and just let your thing slide.

Let's cut the crap, you are challenged to defend that logic and some of your arguments on which you build your theories are simply false and that is already debunked, now you are playing reasonable victim card like last resort and all it's pretty transparent, but hey, whatever keeps you buying stuff.

[simon.a.billington]

No I defended it.

I'm just simply not going to round in circles. People can either put it to the test or don't. They simply aren't convinced with what I'm saying, that's fine. It hasn't been debunked. I have yet to see people present their cases convincingly enough. The street goes both ways.

Do your own tests and studies because clearly anything I say or do is just going to be rejected anyway. Even if I came here with imperical indisputable evidence it will still be questioned and debated.

I recognise a futile subject when I see one.

And was never a GAS suggestion, it was never my intention nor my motive and don't appreciate your false accusations. It is neither a professional attitude nor does it respect the community code.

[Zexila]

Keep playing reasonable victim, don't care really, whatever keeps your bubble intact, feeding your GAS and buying, sleeping and living your life, seriously, it would be highly optimistic to expect anything different than this, so let's drop it.

[simon.a.billington]

Keep playing reasonable victim, don't care really, whatever keeps your bubble intact, feeding your GAS and buying, sleeping and living your life, seriously, it would be highly optimistic to expect anything different than this, so let's drop it.

Man you do really do have a problem with this inflated sense of self importance and skewed sense of judgemental righteousness.

So yeah let's just stick to whatever keeps your "bubble intact" and drop it. I agree.

[Zexila]

Man you do really do have a problem with this inflated sense of self importance and skewed sense of judgemental righteousness.

Oh the irony.

So yeah let's just stick to whatever keeps your "bubble intact" and drop it. I agree.