Sonimus Burnley 73 VS Waves Scheps-73 VS IK multimedia EQ 73

[simon.a.billington]

No irony.

I wasn't the one judging people from
My own twisted sense of perception, and perpetuating lies based on those false judgements.

I wasnt the one coming at you with a superiority complex or with an aggressive attitude.

It costs absolutely nothing to be polite and courteous and professional towards other people.

You've just really revealed what type of person you are. Judgemental, rude and petty.

I'm only challenging your poor behaviour. You make it personal.

[Zexila]

No irony.

I wasn't the one judging people from
My own twisted sense of perception, and perpetuating lies based on those false judgements.

I wasnt the one coming at you with a superiority complex or with an aggressive attitude.

It costs absolutely nothing to be polite and courteous and professional towards other people.

You've just really revealed what type of person you are. Judgemental, rude and petty.

I'm only challenging your poor behaviour. You make it personal.

You just couldn't drop it, complete paradox, it's becoming sad at this point

I'm kind of person that have enough respect to cut the BS and tell it how it is without playing this little emotional games.

Even if I'm worst man that walked on the earth, I called out GAS logic BS when i saw it and you can't prove me wrong, only thing you can do is play this soap opera to oblivion.

So be a better man and just drop it right here, seriously.

[simon.a.billington]

No irony.

I wasn't the one judging people from
My own twisted sense of perception, and perpetuating lies based on those false judgements.

I wasnt the one coming at you with a superiority complex or with an aggressive attitude.

It costs absolutely nothing to be polite and courteous and professional towards other people.

You've just really revealed what type of person you are. Judgemental, rude and petty.

I'm only challenging your poor behaviour. You make it personal.

You just couldn't drop it, complete paradox, it's becoming sad at this point

I'm kind of person that have enough respect to cut the BS and tell it how it is without playing this little emotional games.

Even if I'm worst man that walked on the earth, I called out GAS logic BS when i saw it and you can't prove me wrong, only thing you can do is play this soap opera to oblivion.

So be a better man and just drop it right here, seriously.

Keep it rolling man. Do want to throw some more abuse out there. Does it make you feel big?? Does it make you feel superior??

Oh I can prove you wrong but you're such a petty little person blinded by hatred. You wouldn't believe it. You've called me out on nothing. You don't even have evidence yourself.

Besides even if it were true I see plenty of people speaking the language of GAS in these very pages. It's clearly not wrong or illegal. I've bet you're recommended a plugin before. This is hypocracy in the making.

Did I recommend anything?? Did I single out anything?? No right??

Yet some here have made their recommendations why don't you bugger off and push them around with this bully mentality.

Oh because this isn't about GAS. You make it out to be, but it's not. It's about your self righteousness and ego about now.

You singled me out because you share a different point of view. Yeah I get that, but then start getting abusive because don't agree to an idea.

GAS or not... WTF is up with that??

You really come across as they type of person who would push Stephen Hawkin out of his wheelchair and down a flight of stairs because don't agree with his theory on inflation.

How petty and neurotic can you really be??.

You could have left it. You could have even been polite. You could have been the better person. But you're not really capable of that are you??

So go head get some running room. I await the next post where you let rip some more and push me down that metaphorical "flight of stairs" because you disagree

How mature are you?? What's you're age?? You really do sound quite young and fresh off the playground.

As I have said before, it's a futile effort to convince you of anything. You've already made up your mind about things, right or wrong. Your word is law.

What do you want me to bow before your feet and massage your ego any more??

Cold day in hell before that happens.

So even if I did make a recommendation, you'd be bloody hippocrit because there are many recommendations in this post, not one of them mine.

So come on Mr Big Man... Slander me some more.

[jens]

Simon, without wanting to get personal, I have to say the following:

you started with a very bold claim that was based on a quite eccentric theory, a theory which is in the light of simple logic very questionable, to say the least.

No two analogue devices are the same. No two strips in console are exactly the same. Its the variations between the two that helps to make analogue sound so analogue and has more depth.

The trouble with most plugins at the moment is they model one channel strip and its the one channel strip that people use over and over and over in the same mix. That never happens on a real console.

The trouble is the harmonics they produce are exactly the same, no variations in characteristics whatsoever, and these build up slowly across a mix. Not so much at first, but they begin to to contribute towards a muddier sounding mix the more you stack them, especially if you have 50 or 100+ units across a mix.

Using several plugins modelled after the same thing is like having separate devices or separate strips, but not quite. However, subtle differences between them means the harmonics don't stack in exactly the same way all across the mix, well not as quickly anyway. This is what can help to contribute to a less muddy, more open sounding analogue mix.

And so I questioned it, calling it a wild theory and snake oil and asking you if you really thought it through - to which you replied with:

I've been at this game for over 20 years. Of course I thought about it, I analysed it, its measurable, and I scrutinised it.

It makes total sense when you look at to it from both from a physics point of view and a philosophical point of view. How else do you think the channel emulations in the bx_console or the NLS work?? How else do you think consoles worked so well together?? No two analogue devices are exactly alike, even if it is channel strips in the same console.That's not peddling snake oil. That's peddling physics, science.

The difference isn't as apparent with the NLS or BX, but its there, nonetheless.

Test it yourself, measure it yourself. Instead of making accusations you can't back. That's not a very professional attitude.

By saying I had been making "accusations [ I ] can't back" and calling me unprofessional, you basically threw the gauntlet at me, would you not agree? And of course I took it up, explaining thoroughly, why your idea basically doesn't make any sense at all.

To which you answered with a lengthly reply of major grandeur, which basically did nothing else than first repeating what I said and towards the end repeating your own wild theory again, without actually answering the core point of my argument.

Then others repeated my argument and still you failed to actually answer it, but instead more and more tried to downplay your original claim - and at one point you ended up saying:

Look take it or leave it. I just offered a different way to think about things. Don't shoot the messanger. [sic]

So first you make a wild theory and when people question it, applying using logic and common knowledge, you call yourself the Messenger, as if that theory came from someone else, not you, and you just voiced it here because that someone aksed you to do it. It had nothing to do with you.

But then straight after you went on saying:

Do your own tests be obejective, but most importantly be constructive.

Pessimism doesn't help anyone syretch their mind and consider other alternatives

Which basically means, everyone who dares to challenge this idea, of which - let's not forget - you are only the messenger, is not objectice not constructive , but instead close-minded, pessimist and regressive.

Would you not calling that getting personal?

And then it went on with same style of back-pedalling, ignoring arguments which counter your theory, sulking because people even dare to voice it, accusing them because of it in a general broad manner of a variety of negative attitudes and depicting yourself as the victim for trying to be progressive.


And when I challenged you to partake in a blind-test, you declined.



So in the light of all of this I am wondering:

- do you really feel like a victim who is being attacked for no reason?

- do you really think you are the one who is behaving professional and objective here?

- do you think everyone should be allowed to state any kind of theory, how wild it may ever be, as if it was based on facts without having it questioned?

[simon.a.billington]

I understand what you are saying. I actually wasn't trying to throw down the gauntlet. However I understand my misuse of some words may have lead everyone to think so.

Core point was that it can make a difference and the difference is more notable the more you use it.

Now whether or not this point was important enough to worry about or try or test is completely up to you. I have learned that it doesn't matter what proof or evidence you come at people with, people arguing to the contrary will still some point of contention.

I'm big enough to admit I'm wrong if I believe I'm wrong, and I have been wrong on a small number of occasions in the past. Yet no-one has managed to convince me of it, but that's okay, I've failed to convince people too.

I see this and I am saying "look you don't have to believe me, you don't have to accept it, but you are more than welcome to try out the concept yourself because anything I post is going to not be enough to sway you.

A healthy debate is good if people don't slander and accuse each other. I took offence to that "snake oil" image. I did think it was rude and the professional thing to do. So I responded to such accord.

However, unless I'm wrong, I'm sensing we may be able to openly and maturely discuss the idea more without taking to offending people.

Unfortunately so much had already been written I'd only be paraphrasing myself again. Yes I did paraphrase the second time to explain the concept in more detail, but only because I thought people maybe misunderstanding it. I've eliminated that as a possibility at least.

This got so far out of hand, but there have been a lot of offensive attitudes and not much information illustrating to the contrary. There were some good contributions hidden amidst the nastiness and the sarcasm, however that is not a good way to illicit a fair response.

It would seem, that according to your account I could be misconstrued for doing the same.

To be honest though, it did all start with that offensive "snake oil" image for me. Whether you meant it as an insult is now another question.

However I will apologise myself if what I said in "reaction" had offended you.

[Zexila]

No irony.

I wasn't the one judging people from
My own twisted sense of perception, and perpetuating lies based on those false judgements.

I wasnt the one coming at you with a superiority complex or with an aggressive attitude.

It costs absolutely nothing to be polite and courteous and professional towards other people.

You've just really revealed what type of person you are. Judgemental, rude and petty.

I'm only challenging your poor behaviour. You make it personal.

You just couldn't drop it, complete paradox, it's becoming sad at this point

I'm kind of person that have enough respect to cut the BS and tell it how it is without playing this little emotional games.

Even if I'm worst man that walked on the earth, I called out GAS logic BS when i saw it and you can't prove me wrong, only thing you can do is play this soap opera to oblivion.

So be a better man and just drop it right here, seriously.

Keep it rolling man. Do want to throw some more abuse out there. Does it make you feel big?? Does it make you feel superior??

Oh I can prove you wrong but you're such a petty little person blinded by hatred. You wouldn't believe it. You've called me out on nothing. You don't even have evidence yourself.

Besides even if it were true I see plenty of people speaking the language of GAS in these very pages. It's clearly not wrong or illegal. I've bet you're recommended a plugin before. This is hypocracy in the making.

Did I recommend anything?? Did I single out anything?? No right??

Yet some here have made their recommendations why don't you bugger off and push them around with this bully mentality.

Oh because this isn't about GAS. You make it out to be, but it's not. It's about your self righteousness and ego about now.

You singled me out because you share a different point of view. Yeah I get that, but then start getting abusive because don't agree to an idea.

GAS or not... WTF is up with that??

You really come across as they type of person who would push Stephen Hawkin out of his wheelchair and down a flight of stairs because don't agree with his theory on inflation.

How petty and neurotic can you really be??.

You could have left it. You could have even been polite. You could have been the better person. But you're not really capable of that are you??

So go head get some running room. I await the next post where you let rip some more and push me down that metaphorical "flight of stairs" because you disagree

How mature are you?? What's you're age?? You really do sound quite young and fresh off the playground.

As I have said before, it's a futile effort to convince you of anything. You've already made up your mind about things, right or wrong. Your word is law.

What do you want me to bow before your feet and massage your ego any more??

Cold day in hell before that happens.

So even if I did make a recommendation, you'd be bloody hippocrit because there are many recommendations in this post, not one of them mine.

So come on Mr Big Man... Slander me some more.

Seriously man, stop the opera, act like a grown man and stop beating yourself up with my own hand, it's seriously sad, just because I questioned your logic and told you straight what I think about all that, than cut all your acts from the root and refuse to get on your emotional roller coaster, I'm too old for that stuff that's for sure and seriously my eyebrow didn't moved reading all this nonsense, you seriously think your words have any power, you seriously think I care what anyone thinks about me, why do you care so much to get so emotionally involved is beyond me, wow, it's freaking forum, that's your words there, not you, so stop that and take that emotions back and be grown up about it for a second, you said some BS, people called you out on that, that's all there is, nobody tried to rape you, I'm really tired of this stuff, goodbye Simon.

[simon.a.billington]

WTF!! Dude you have issues.

Goodbye alright

[Zexila]

WTF!! Dude you have issues.

Goodbye alright

Sure, if that makes you feel better, please let this be last time we talk to each other. Goodbye

[Burillo]

I agree it doesn't make a meaningful difference with lower levels of saturation. However, I think it matters with higher levels of saturation and possibly even when there's low levels of saturation across many tracks (the aforementioned build up). The harmonic series is the harmonic series, even if it's coming from different instruments, and that's why many high gain amp plugins sound pretty much the same no matter what guitar is used with them.

we aren't talking guitar amps do harmonics build up? sure. do they build up less if the "component tolerances of different channels" are modeled? that is the question. my contention is, there wouldn't be any meaningful differences. the saturation algorithm would have far more effect on the final sound than any kind of harmonic buildup.

simon.a.billington, i think you're having a bit of a misconception of what's the issue here.

no one is arguing that two pieces of the same hardware are the same. they aren't, and there are always variations in component tolerances etc which are non-existent in digital plugins. that part is true, and no one is arguing with that.

the question is rather do these differences matter. and that can only be found out with a blind test. you can measure your hardware (real or virtual) till you're blue in the face, that won't tell you anything useful, because whether hardware has differences between identical units isn't the real question. "do your own test" isn't really a valid test, because you already know which is which, and thus are subject to biases. which is why jens has offered you to do a blind test.

[simon.a.billington]

Yes I'm only saying the COULD matter, but that depends on two things...

How big the mix is (as in how many instances you have)

And whether or not that is the type of subtle thing that will concern you at all.

Mind you this will also depend on what channel strip you are using. Neve, EMI??

That EMI will saturate a mix a lot more quickly than a Neve. So you won't need as high a track count.

Everyone will have their own answer to this. Some people may want to consider it, others may not. Who are we to decide for other people so it's best left for personal interpretation.

It's very much akin to trying to keep noise levels down. Principally it may not bother you it you record a guitar or two with a little bit of noise in the track, it won't be that detrimental. But what if the noise was across all your tracks in a 100 track mix?? Well I imagine the noise becomes more of a concern.

Wouldn't you now want to ensure all those 100 tracks had less noise on them in the first place. Or at least had different "noise prints" to avoid build ups on key areas. It's 100 tracks after all.

So it's up to people how they want to answer that question, because it may not even be an issue for some.

I realise there is a vast difference between noise and harmonics. Noise is much more obtrusive. At some point however so is harmonic saturation and resonances.

At what point this becomes an issue depends on the harmonic saturation and it depends on the mixer, their mixing style and what they are trying to achieve.

I cannot answer that.

[Uncle E]

If I create two test-files according to your described method, are you willing to partake in a blind-test?

He said he would and I would, as well. You would have to use NLS for the test, bx_console wouldn't work since it doesn't model saturation. Please use at least 56 channels.

[Uncle E]

we aren't talking guitar amps do harmonics build up? sure. do they build up less if the "component tolerances of different channels" are modeled? that is the question. my contention is, there wouldn't be any meaningful differences. the saturation algorithm would have far more effect on the final sound than any kind of harmonic buildup.

I certainly agree the saturation itself is a bigger part of it. The part that I wince at in this thread is when people tell the guy that what he is saying is "non-existent" or "snake oil". It's fine to debate over whether the difference is meaningful or not but it's illogical for anyone to state the difference 100% does not exist.

[Uncle E]

Mind you this will also depend on what channel strip you are using. Neve, EMI??

Maybe part of the problem is we are no longer discussing a single product but rather a concept. Most people in the world (including myself) don't have any idea of what real EMI or a proper Marinair-equipped Neve consoles sound like. The only plugin I know of that features both channel variation and modeled saturation/clipping is NLS so maybe it would be best to keep the discussion to that?

[jens]

If I create two test-files according to your described method, are you willing to partake in a blind-test?

He said he would and I would, as well. You would have to use NLS for the test, bx_console wouldn't work since it doesn't model saturation. Please use at least 56 channels.

I would of course use the IKMM EQ73 on all the tracks vs. the IKMM EQ73 & Waves' emulation of the 1073, each on half of the tracks - which is what this whole argument started with - and nothing else.

So I suggest you go back to page one, read again, then come back and say whether you want to partake or not.

[Uncle E]

I would of course use the IKMM EQ73 on all the tracks vs. the IKMM EQ73 & Waves' emulation of the 1073, each on half of the tracks - which is what this whole argument started with - and nothing else.

So I suggest you go back to page one, read again, then come back and say whether you want to partake or not.

Simon has been talking about using NLS together with them since his first post in this thread. However, if you prefer to not include NLS, I'm fine with that, too.