What makes a DAW's midi editor good?

[fmr]

Logic MIDI tools are very powerful, but so are Cubase ones, although they work somehow differently. Logic event list has that strange note value subdivision which makes it hard to work for me.

IMO, the best DAW in what concerns MIDI is Digital Performer. There was only one that could beat it, and that was Studio Vision, which is no longer available. The DP event list is superb

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[fmr]

Logic MIDI tools are very powerful, but so are Cubase ones, although they work somehow differently. Logic event list has that strange note value subdivision which makes it hard to work for me.

IMO, the best DAW in what concerns MIDI is Digital Performer. There was only one that could beat it, and that was Studio Vision, which is no longer available. The DP event list is superb

just curious, what do you mean by note value subdivision? Strange in what way?

It's not just note duration, but also note position. For example, in DP, the position of the notes is always defined in Bar, Beat, PPQN. Therefore, you always have a clear idea where the note is (since you know that 480 PPQN is a quarter note, 240 is an eight note, 125 is a sixteenth note, 64 is a 32nd, etc.). For me, it's simple and clear. In Logic, you have Bar, Beat, sub-division, and PPQN. This makes it confuse to change the note placement precisely, if we want it (many times, I want to change the note position by just a few ticks). If I go to Logic and change the ticks, it suddenly displays another subdivision value, and change the ticks value to something completely different. I never felt the need or understood why that's the way it (and it9s this way since the beginning).

Pro Tools event list follows the same way of DP, since it is inherited from Studio Vision (I believe it was Dave Oppenheim that created that part).

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[fmr]

PT's event list can't do anything without menu diving.. it's useless, just for show.

It's not as powerful as Studio Vision was, or DP is, but it's manageable. And what is the problem of menu diving?

Re Logic.. No.. don't agree at all..I have absolutely no idea what you are on about, so i guess i'll bow out as i can't see a thing wrong with it. Nothing changes with logic.. you can edit in the event list all you want, it's 240 ticks per quarter, same midi editing resolution as PT.. it only changes once you go over 240 or under 1.

No, it's not 240 ticks per quarter, it's 240 per subdivision - that's the hassle. Logic resolution, by default is 960 PPQN. If they used that higher resolution without the subdivision, it would be fine for me - I just need to know where are the beats in every bar, and what is the beat unit, nothing else.

Honestly i have absolutely *no* idea what you are talking about. I like Logic's event list the best. Lots of people use Logic.. so you like DP"s display best... cool.. Dp is actually my least favourite DAW and i couldn't get to grips with it at ALL.. i gave up stressing myself out and just never ran the demo again.. I just don't get how logic could stop you editing, but to each their own.. You got to use what feels right!

Clearly you have no idea. But I agree that each one should use what fits best in him. For me, in what concerns Event List, the ones that fit me more are the ones that work like Digital Performer, or Pro Tools - Bars, Beats and ticks (PPQN) - nothing else.

[inkwarp]

fl is the best midi piano roll by a country mile. very fast, loads of functions get a lot done quickly.
then i can import that into another app if need be.
cubase is probably the most dense and sophisticated, but if i want to just get stuff down without thinking, it's FL.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[EnGee]

What makes a DAW's midi editor good?

For me, it is the balance between complexity and easy workflow. This sounds a cliché maybe! But, in my case I have been hunting for such host and in the end I came to the conclusion that I need to concentrate on what is the most important for me, then going down the list.

IMO, the midi editing is connected to other workflow parts. In my case, Bitwig has a better midi editing than Studio One, but Bitwig, and Live as well, are missing two things which I'm frequently using:
1. Drum editor with notes names for 3rd party VSTi like NI Battery
2. Useful review for midi files in the browser (important if you have tons of drums patterns and you are not a drummer!)

Reaper of course have a very good tools for midi. But it is like in its own world (with FL Studio is more alien even than Reaper). Anyway, I believe that if you can play well, that will eliminate the need for so much midi editing! I always find what I play is much more interesting than the edited version. It just has nicer dynamics and feel than the modified one (even when using humanizing in position and velocity).

Reaper on the other hand has a staff view for the midi that Studio One and Bitwig lack of course. Cubase might be the best one with Midi, but I have countless stability problems with Elements 8, and even if I have the money, I won't upgrade. I don't feel really it worth it. Sonar? No! Logic? It is great but I don't want to use Mac (nothing against apple, I have iPad, but I like my Windows 10 machines). I don't know about other hosts. So, for me now, I have basic to moderate midi editing needs and I can achieve that in Bitwig and Studio One

The real problem (or challenge) is the midi keyboard. With my blofeld, I sometimes can't play very low velocity notes with it, it doesn't register! so I end up changing the velocity curve or try to make the volume less, velocity editing, ...etc. With the Casio Digital Piano, the situation is better. It has a better velocity sensitivity than blofeld (but still not like a real acoustic instrument of course!).

That is it with Midi for me! I don't care a lot about advanced midi editing or chords helper or event list. I mostly record what I play. I prefer midi recording than audio because I usually forget what I play the next day

[masterhiggins]

Not to sound cheeky, by why would someone ever switch from logic to pro tools?

[Zexila]

Not to sound cheeky, by why would someone ever switch from logic to pro tools?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=453488
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=464832

automation timing is still 100% broken when latent plugins are involved.. will make a video showcasing this.. zero change. one thing is the gui is the snappiest it's ever been.. no more jerks when click dragging an automation point for example.. smooth as butter.

There's no daw i know of that can automate actual latent plugins in time without being offset by their latency, but the problem with logic on track inserts is that it throws all OTHER, even zero latency fx, out of time if they are on the same track as the latent effects, therefore rendering automation timing and using any latent plugins in logic and expecting tight automation, completely impossible. This makes logic useless to me as a daw unfortunately since i use uad.

[masterhiggins]

Seems like quite a big trade off considering every other glaring thing pro tools is missing. But to each his own, I guess.

[fmr]

per qurter beat Logic has 240 ticks timeline editing resolution.. it's that simple.. i have no idea why you are continuing to make it so complicated and try prove me wrong (I'm not by the way). PT is exactly the same.

1 1 1 240
then up to 1 1 2 240
then 1 1 3 240
....and so on.
I have been working with Logic for over 20 years and it has NEVER been any different to that.

Yes i know it's 960 pulses per quarter note internal resolution. However, logic's *editing resolution for the timeline* is 240 ticks per quarter beat.

That *editing resolution for the timeline* is exactly the nonsense I was referring. A beat is a bar subdivision, therefore, in 4/4, a beat is a quarter note, in 3/8 a beat is an eight note, in 6/8 a beat is a dotted quarter note, and in 2/2 a beat is a half note. So, that "quarter beat" is what, musically speaking? IMO, it's even meaningless outside any bar that has not the quarter note as its beat. A "quarter beat" is a semi quaver, or 16th note, as simple as that. I don't need to have that in the event list, since I just need to know what beat I am (besides, not all bars have binary beat subdivisions - 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, for example have ternary subdivisions). What sense would make a "quarter beat" in a 9/8 bar, for example, or in a 2/2 bar?

Anyway, I was digging deeply, and I found that I can change Logic display to show exactly as DP (except that the quarter division is up to 960, of course). So, if you choose that option you have 1 (bar), 1 (beat), and a value up to the beat value - this makes more sense to me, as reflects how I read music in a score. BUT (and this is a big but)... I just checked the event list without subdivision in 2/2 bar, and I noticed it can't show the duration beyond a quarter without subdivision (shame). I had to get back to that nonsense, and a whole note duration is displayed as 0 1 7 232 (the real duration is not exactly a whole note, since I take a little duration for respiration). How am I supposed to read that? Why not 0 1 1912. DP, for example, would show it as 3 472. Not perfect, in relation with bar, but at least this is coherent throughout any bar - it's always quarter note and quarter note ticks. Simple arithmetic.

And, if you are talking internal resolution, while DP defaults to 480, it can go up to 3840 (I can't imagine who would need such an high resolution).

This is all nitpicking, and will not devalue Logic powerful MIDI implementation. And again, each one his own tea pot. For me, this concept is extraneous and nonsense. Other than that, Logic MIDI is great, as is Cubase, and Digital Performer, and SONAR. The oldest sequencers come first, and this is no surprise, since they were born as MIDI only.

[juliansader]

For me personally, I would highlight four requirements:

1) CC drawing and tweaking: CCs make MIDI mockups come alive, so I need to be able to easily draw CC curves and insert creative LFO shapes. And I need to be able to easily tweak existing curves by, for example, twisting or tilting the curve. FL Studio and Cubase are justly renowned for their CC editing features. This used to be REAPER's Achilles' heel, but thanks to user scripts, REAPER's CC tweaking and LFO features now almost rival those of FL Studio or Cubase. (BTW, REAPER now also has an extension that makes installing user scripts very easy: ReaPack.)

2) Comprehensive visualization options: Notation view as well as a piano roll; multiple MIDI editors simultaneously (at least two editors, one of which will show the piano roll and the other the notation view); multiple CC lanes simultaneously, etc. Logic Pro can only display a single CC lane at a time, which feels very primitive to me. SONAR goes to the other extreme and automatically opens a separate CC lane for every CC in every track that the user dares to add to the piano roll. (If you try to edit multiple tracks with complex CC controls, SONAR opens so many CC lanes that you cannot even access the 'close' buttons.) REAPER's multi-track CC display is much better. Cubase has a great piano roll and great notation features, whereas FL Studio has a great piano roll but no notation. REAPER's notation view and support for multiple MIDI editors are not yet feature-complete, but are rapidly improving at each release.

3) MIDI transformation and routing: Transform incoming notes into CCs; route one MIDI channel into multiple other channels; multiply the velocities of notes, etc. (These features are not part of the MIDI editor, strictly speaking, but they relate to how the MIDI editor can interact with the rest of the setup). Probably any DAW that can load MIDI VST or MFX plugins can do most of these transformations, using for example Insert Piz Here's VST, Tencrazy's MFX or REAPER's JS plugins.

4) Logical Editor: Cubase's Logical Editor is unrivaled for processing of MIDI. REAPER's scripting features allow for a similar functionality - BUT only if the user is willing to learn ReaScript coding and then to set up some templates. Once the templates have been coded, Reascript can do everything - and more - that Cubase's Logical Editor can do.

Cubase is widely recognized to be the leader when it comes to MIDI editors. I would contend that REAPER is not far behind, though.

[kelldammit]

Overall, i find cubase's editor to be pretty good. The only thing i dislike (had this gripe with logic too) is that you can't "live" in the midi editor, as you can with DP, PT, or S1. You always have to bounce back to the arrangement to change selections. It's awfully tedious, particularly on a laptop.
To compound that, selecting a clip doesn't make other clips on that track available to edit...you have to select them all. I keep forgetting that...but it just feels archaic...a clumsy "throwback to the 90's" thing.
For some projects, it's a non-issue. For others...it's faster to just export the midi and work on it elsewhere. It just depends on how you may be used to working...and would fall squarely into the "first world problems" category.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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