Best Piano - PIANOTEQ

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Uncle E wrote:
realtrance wrote:Any sampled note is always going to play the same way. Period. No matter how good the layering and velocity switching. You can introduce great variety with such script-based techniques -- Native Instruments' Kontakt pianos are great, thorough, well-researched examples -- but in the end,it's always going to feel, to someone like me, not quite there.
What do you think of Vienna Imperial Grand? The demos sound like great recordings of great pianos to me.
As with NI's work, Roland's and Yamaha's, yes, that's a beautifully, carefully sampled and automated representation of an excellent piano.

The nice things sometimes about sampled grands is that sometimes you get close to the feel in particular of the extremes, bottom end and very high notes. As with all electronic synthesis, it's very difficult to really capture the physics and resulting sounds at those ends of the spectrum (same is true for recording a real piano for a music performance). A lot is also dependent on the sound system you're outputting on; most headphones/earphones/speakers hit severe limits in these areas, and grand pianos also have a dynamic range that only great audio and professional, practiced microphone placement and use can capture.

That's the thing: you can do a lot of work to get "close" to making up for the fact that, like me, you have neither the money or space for a real piano..... but if you know its sound and feel (and smell, even!).... it'll always be an approximation.

The good thing is the approximations are getting closer to capturing more of the real experience, and it's scientifically valuable to keep evolving the software to try to do same; it's how most synthesis has progressed, historically.

One of the cool things about Pianoteq is that it has clearly had the close involvement of trained piano tuners, and people very familiar with the history of the instrument. If you enjoy tweaking the details, you can really get under the hood (with the full version, of course) and learn all the stuff piano tuners must know to get great sound out of a model.

I distinctly remember there were periods when my "main" piano sounded quite different -- better, or worse! -- depending on how well the piano tuner had done his job that time through. <g> If I'd had more knowledge, I'd have both understood his challenges better, and would have been able to discuss tuning goals with him before a tune.

And, of course, pianos will sound different depending on the weather - humidity, temperature, it affects the physics of the instrument, as well as the transmission of sound in a physical space that is also changed by that same weather, so in fact it's a whole, hugely complex system.

So there is plenty left to do! "FXP file: Pleyel in an 18th century chamber on a rainy autumn day in Boulogne...." :)

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tristan- wrote:The pianos from the Roland Integra 7 with the SuperNatural engine beats the s*** out of Pianoteq.
but if we discuss only plugins, in terms of playability Pianoteq is probably the best. not sound-wise, though. some Kontakt libs are 1000x better! ESPECIALLY Galaxy pianos (Vintage D, Steinway, Vienna). awesome stuff.
I just do not believe it. Pianoteq at version 5 is extremely realistic.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

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electro wrote:
tristan- wrote:The pianos from the Roland Integra 7 with the SuperNatural engine beats the s*** out of Pianoteq.
but if we discuss only plugins, in terms of playability Pianoteq is probably the best. not sound-wise, though. some Kontakt libs are 1000x better! ESPECIALLY Galaxy pianos (Vintage D, Steinway, Vienna). awesome stuff.
I just do not believe it. Pianoteq at version 5 is extremely realistic.
what can I say? playability needs to be tested firsthand. try one

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What kind of sound engine does Roland supernatural pianos on the integra7 use?

The problem with Roland is that they use different technologies across their products. The V piano and the newest LX and HP models use 100% physical modeling. The RD800 uses mostly modeling with some samples, the lower models use sampling with a little bit of modeling.

Also Roland doesn't try to achieve any piano particular sound (steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, Bossendofer, etc acoustic pianos have their own sound), they try their own thing.

I personally like pianoteq a lot, it is quite expensive for the Standard version nevertheless. I also like that it comes with different models: Steinway, Bluthner, Yamaha, but they should expand even more to more european brands (Bossie, Bechstein, Fazioli, etc.).
dedication to flying

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rod_zero wrote:What kind of sound engine does Roland supernatural pianos on the integra7 use?

The problem with Roland is that they use different technologies across their products. The V piano and the newest LX and HP models use 100% physical modeling. The RD800 uses mostly modeling with some samples, the lower models use sampling with a little bit of modeling.

Also Roland doesn't try to achieve any piano particular sound (steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, Bossendofer, etc acoustic pianos have their own sound), they try their own thing.

I personally like pianoteq a lot, it is quite expensive for the Standard version nevertheless. I also like that it comes with different models: Steinway, Bluthner, Yamaha, but they should expand even more to more european brands (Bossie, Bechstein, Fazioli, etc.).
not sure. SuperNatural basically is physical modeling (which also incorporate samples). sympathetic resonance and everything. you can actually control this parameter and others.

I'd say sampling is not a huge factor of it, because if you see the sheer amount of sounds in an Integra 7, it's impossible it would use sampling for such a vast library.

together with SuperNatural technology on the I7 there's also behaviour modeling to some of the instrument (for example trumpets, resemble the sort of effect you'd get on one of those Yamaha VL-1 physical modeling synths, just with much convincing sound...)

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Well, it's all subjective - right?

Something I never see in these threads that I believe shouldn't be overlooked in Pianoteq 5 is how good the Kremseggs Historical Pianos are. I'm particularly fond of the Bechstein but many of the others remind me of pianos I happened on to in various places when performing as a teenager.
Fact is, I'm in a group that most pianos bring something unique to the table and just like a guitarist with GAS, don't think I can buy one that is best for everything and be done with it, once and for all.

But I also don't believe I need everything ever programmed.
I do have my favorites, and Pianoteq 5 is pretty much one of the favorites for a 'go-to'.
As far as the sampled versions, I use Steinberg Grand almost as much.
Kontakt pianos are good in its own mix, but none of them stand out to me as a 100% version.
(Mostly by how they play rather than how they sound. I seem to find a skip in their velocity range and a noticeable sample split point.) Ironically, the Kontakt factory piano I use more than the rest of them is The Giant, because of the ease in mangling the sound to something not even close to a piano. I feel the Una Corda would probably hit in that cinematic spot for me also, but I do not own it as of yet. I also find that certain pianos fit better with certain vocalists. So it's nice to be able to match them quickly and easily by having a pool to pick from. But with all that is available in the market now, can a person who's first instrument is a piano have too many versions? I don't believe so.

As far as hardware sampled pianos, again I believe it's subjective and personal. But Roland hasn't done anything to impress me as doing anything but get cheesier and cheesier and they seem to not even be able to emulate themselves in the new versions of their old sounds while adding built in obsolescence to everything they manufacture now. Who knew that what will probably kill Roland would be Roland itself?
Nord has just never impressed me overall and their synth/organ sides seem to be almost an afterthought in a good piano that doesn't warrant the total price.
Kurzweil is another that has never impressed, finding the pianos to be adequate but somehow always 'muddy' to me. I do think their boards have some of best organs of the big hardware keyboards though.

Anyway, in hardware, I love my Korg and Yamaha pianos, giving the edge to Korg in the German/Austrian versions and the edge to Yamaha in the Japanese/CP Electrics.

Back to software, Pianoteq 5 for its sound, play-ability and very small footprint is something I carry with me in my 'survival pack' of absolute necessities. The fact that it installs without issue is a plus.
And if you haven't done so, check out their historical sets, they really are quite good and unique.

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Today is the last day of the Pianoteq 5 Standard sale. $219 instead of $319, plus there's an extra discount in cart:

www.jrrshop.com/pianoteq-5-standard

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Uncle E wrote:Today is the last day of the Pianoteq 5 Standard sale. $219 instead of $319, plus there's an extra discount in cart:

www.jrrshop.com/pianoteq-5-standard

Nooooo, I hadn't not noticed this offer. My credit card is full, and the recent brexit totally trasshed my country currency so i have to pass today but man If I had known earlier :(
dedication to flying

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rod_zero wrote:Nooooo, I hadn't not noticed this offer. My credit card is full, and the recent brexit totally trasshed my country currency so i have to pass today but man If I had known earlier :(
I didn't know that Brexit has an effect to the rate of the Mexican Peso :?:

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rod_zero wrote:Nooooo, I hadn't not noticed this offer. My credit card is full, and the recent brexit totally trasshed my country currency so i have to pass today but man If I had known earlier :(
I can buy an extra and set it aside for you if you think you can get it any time soon.

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Uncle E wrote:
rod_zero wrote:Nooooo, I hadn't not noticed this offer. My credit card is full, and the recent brexit totally trasshed my country currency so i have to pass today but man If I had known earlier :(
I can buy an extra and set it aside for you if you think you can get it any time soon.
Thanks a lot, but I have not planned such a purchase so I won't be able to pay for it soon.

Does Moddart has this poromotions anually?
dedication to flying

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rod_zero wrote:Does Moddart has this poromotions anually?
Their sales are pretty rare and I haven't noticed any regularity to them.

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What about XLN's Addictive Keys?

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tristan- wrote:
rod_zero wrote:What kind of sound engine does Roland supernatural pianos on the integra7 use?

The problem with Roland is that they use different technologies across their products. The V piano and the newest LX and HP models use 100% physical modeling. The RD800 uses mostly modeling with some samples, the lower models use sampling with a little bit of modeling.

Also Roland doesn't try to achieve any piano particular sound (steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, Bossendofer, etc acoustic pianos have their own sound), they try their own thing.

I personally like pianoteq a lot, it is quite expensive for the Standard version nevertheless. I also like that it comes with different models: Steinway, Bluthner, Yamaha, but they should expand even more to more european brands (Bossie, Bechstein, Fazioli, etc.).
not sure. SuperNatural basically is physical modeling (which also incorporate samples). sympathetic resonance and everything. you can actually control this parameter and others.

I'd say sampling is not a huge factor of it, because if you see the sheer amount of sounds in an Integra 7, it's impossible it would use sampling for such a vast library.

together with SuperNatural technology on the I7 there's also behaviour modeling to some of the instrument (for example trumpets, resemble the sort of effect you'd get on one of those Yamaha VL-1 physical modeling synths, just with much convincing sound...)
I looked it up,

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/06/04 ... ernatural/

It is a hybrid approach so yes, better than just samples, but it is still sample based for the sound, the modelling seems to be related to things like sympathetic resonance and instrument behaviour. It doesn't seem that close to what the VL does or the V Piano but I can see how it would sound better than a pure sample based instrument. Personally I would still prefer full modelling of the sound production process as that is where physical modelling wins out for me, you don't get the same recording played back each time. Plus for me the main benefit is once I have a good starting point I can create hybrids between different types of acoustic instruments or impossible instruments that still respond like a real intrstrument does.

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I have been wanting to love Pianoteq for years, but for the life of me it just doesn't sound as good to my ears as my favorite sampled piano libraries. For lack of better words, it just sounds somewhat "plasticky" or "synthetic" to my ears. I have no doubt that it will keep getting better and better with every new version, but I still think it's going to be 5 or 10 more years before it sounds as good as the real deal.

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