Will we see fundamental changes with Steinberg in the future (status: mid 2016)

[Compyfox]

Since the last "Steinberg related" thread was closed once again due to "reasons" - let's change course a bit and go full head on with a general Steinberg topic.



Steinberg just repeated their warning, that from the following major versions of their hosts, the internal 32bit bridge will be removed. This came upon mixed reviews months ago already, as to some the bit bridge is still an essential tool (still way too many great VST2 plugins in 32bit out there), and to some it's a hated add on (due to random crashes). Their alternative recommendation is actually jBridge (surprisingly!).

Whether or not this is a blessing, is up to you.

In fact, did anyone of you notice that Steinberg works on an evasion of the Quicktime CODEC? IMO one of the best things they could do as this caused a lot of issues for Windows users, especially those that do not want to use Quicktime.

(in fact - speaking from personal experience - if you had iTunes on PC installed, but deinstalled it due to reasons, chances are that Steinberg crashes with a Video Engine error after you closed the host)



But this doesn't end here.

Steinberg is constantly moving forward. Even more so than ever, picking up speed, not knowing where the breaks are. Full on collision course! (anybody remembers the music video "Breakthrough" by Queen? Imagine that train!)

As can be seen with their upgrades for various VST Plugins (most notably VST Connect)/VST Instruments (Padshop, Halion, Groove Agent), but also their host announcements (Nuendo 7.1, Cubase 8.5.20, Cubasis 1.9.9 iOS with v2 on front doors, Wavelab 9.0.25, Sequel 3) - not to mention their host renaming (Cubase and Wavelab turned into Cubase Pro and Wavelab Pro respectively). With three major host upgrades/releases on the front door (Cubase 9 will probably hit late Autumn if we take the 1-year upgrade cycle into account, the former Sibelius programmer will release "Dorico" in Q4/2016 as well, Cubasis 2 in iOS).

Not counting integration from Yamaha hardware like the Nuage, their USB ADC's or even the Yamaha THR amp (well... not via control script or anything, but rather ADC drivers only, but still)



This pops up a lot of questions.
But the main one is - how do we go from here?!



Personally (as longtime Steinberg User), the following will happen in the foreseeable future - no doubt about it.


a) after the announcement of the drop of the 32bit Bit Bridge, the 32bit versions of the hosts will vanish eventually

This might not happen with Cubase 9 (2016) yet (though all signs are there - see links above), but maybe with Wavelab 9.5 and Nuendo 7.5 in 2017. Dorico might be released as x64 only tool already in Q4/2016. It's inevitable however.

in fact, certain programs in the audio and video realm only start/work on x64 OS's. Logic being a prime example (64bit only, first released for OSX10.8 ), from Adobe it's all of their programs since CS5 IIRC (I still remember Premiere and After Effects refusing to launch on a 32bit OS!). And from Magix, it's their video NLE (have kind of lost track of Samplitude). OSX turned fully 64bit since OSX10.6 - Snow Leopard, Windows 10 is still available in 32bit - but this wasn't necessarily planned IMHO.





b) future host versions will only support specific OS versions (due to backwards compatibility reasons) - for Windows I assume Windows 8.1 bar minimum, and for Mac I assume OSX10.10 Yosemite or even OSX10.11 El Capitan (OSX10.12 Sierra is on front doors).

By that, I not only mean "x64 only" but OS versions in general to keep the backwards compatibility at the essentials. It's no secret that OSX upgrades tend to break hosts and plugins, and Windows is going the same route now. In fact... Steinberg dropped XP and VISTA in secret during Cubase 6 days. Windows 10 has been officially out for almost a year (July 2015), and the Win7 Mainstream Support did end in January 2015 (according to Microsoft, the Extended Support goes until 14h January 2020). We can expect a drop of support for Win7 eventually in favor for Windows 10 and it's "upgrade engine". Less work for the developers, as they have to keep less eyes on old OS's.

So we might run into a "forced OS upgrade" situation like with Logic at some point. Which can be both good and bad (see OSX). When? Maybe already with Cubase 9, maybe later. But the warning signs are there.




c) due to the very negative response of the "forced VST SDK v3.x" (drop of the VST2.x SDK), and the backlash of the VST3 technology in general (especially from third party programmers and the JUCE framework creators!), not to mention seeing that the SDK is already at v3.6+, we'll eventually see VST4 (I guess by/around Summer 2017 soonest)

The hope is still, that the SDK developers sat together with Framework programmers and 3rd Party developers to iron out all issues that came up with the (barely documented) VST3 SDK (I can dream!), while keeping VST2 alive as long as possible. The majority of tools on the market are still VST2. Though we won't see native VST2 sidechaining in Cubase anymore - this ship is long gone.




d) a Cubase recode from scratch is inevitable

It already happened with Wavelab 9 - and it was IMO a really good move (if not the ultimate move) as this cleared a lot of bugs that got introduced with Wavelab 7 (the switch to the new GUI, the cross-platform support, QT5 as framework). Mainly VST3 support (funny enough). It's still not super bug free for certain third party developers. However previously non-working tools, do so now. Cubase always suffered from add-ons and spaghetti code. Due to this, the SX series was a complete recode from the old "VST branch", which did live on for nearly a decade at that point. Now we're at a boiling point again - and in fact, behind closed doors and through the flower, it was hinted at several times that "certain bugs can only be fixed if we code from scratch" (at trade shows, and forums - albeit those comments on the latter are now gone: deleted/edited). So a recode is ultimately inevitable.

Cubase 7 was a good start towards that direction, but it felt like tacked on code and got disimproved with every consecutive update. Cubase 8 on the other hand tried to fix even more stuff (new main window handling, ASIO Guard 2, some improvement to the Mix Console). This is reminiscent of Wavelab 7 and Wavelab 8 - trial and error. But a recode has to happen at some point rather than "refurbishing old code". So I guess by Cubase 9 or Cubase 10 (the infamous roman X might be used!), we might see a completely recoded Cubase. With Nuendo in close pursuit (Nuendo is based upon Cubase's code after all).

With the added bonus, that "workarounds in plugin code" from third party developers can finally be reduced again. I actually do welcome that.




e) Pure Speculation: we might maybe even see another upgrade of the Syncrosoft engine (since the USB keys turn a bit old at this point)

Currently, the USB key is upgraded as part of a maintenance update. But we never know how far this will go. Seeing as the iLok also got to v2 with the USB key (to kick off the overhauled/more secure iLok2 routines) and the manager is currently on v3 (aka EDEN3). Though crack groups might still be having a stab at unlocking copy protection in general - we sadly can't prevent that.

The USB keys also also known to "Not work forever". So this is another possible thing to talk about.





Those points for starters... though one thing might never happen I'm afraid - more interim dot-updates and a longer upgrade cycle.



What are your opinions on these topics? Is it too far fetched?
Are you also a longtime Steinberg user? Did you follow their history?

What are your predictions and theories?

Please discuss.

[LawrenceF]

My uninformed theory (for all of them really) is that as long as they're profitable they'll keep doing whatever they're doing to be profitable.

Frankly, these companies couldn't care less about the gripes of a smallish group of users because they know what we all know, that most people who are deeply involved in all that are kind of addicted to software and even if they leave to use something else they'll be quickly replaced by other new users anyway, or they'll be back soon enough at the next shiny update.

The only thing that matters in the end is profit because at the end of the day it's a for-profit business... and as long as they're profitable they're on the right path no matter what the Internet thinks. The only point of business is to make more money than you spend and what we think about the product doesn't appear to have had much if any effect on that over the years.

My Motto: If you're really unhappy with a product, stop using it, move on, let it go. Life is too short to spend 5-7-10 years complaining about optional software.

[xphen0m]

The sky is going to fall at this rate with the way Compy talks about this.

[medienhexer]

Well, I've been using Cubase on and off since.. Was ist called SX?

But I've always been a Logic user first and frankly, Cubase has always been a struggle. It's the small things which just prevent the flow for me. Plus, up to v7.5, which is where I finally stopped the insane upgrade cycle, performance on the Mac was bad.

They have introduced some great features, instruments and effects, but it's just not worth the constant struggle to me. Things are just counter-intuitive to me and I kept spending more time yelling at the thing than being creative.

I didn't upgrade beyond 7.5, took the money I saved and added Live 9 and Push to my setup and couldn't be happier. Basically works as reliably as Logic and it gives me a second workflow option when I get stuck creatively.

Steinberg would have to lower upgrade prices and frequency a lot, start fixing more of those decade-old bugs for free. Have you seen the change lists of the recent Logic updates? Looks like they're cleaning out their complete backlog. That's what Steinberg will have to start competing with very soon.

The market is changing rapidly. Free lifetime bug fixes and upgrades of the core DAW offered for both Sonar and FLStudio, rental models like Pro Tools, 3+ years product cycle at Ableton and Apple - other companies seem to have a better grasp on reality. Software is a service. So make sure your service quality is good and your users don't pay for every little step forward...

[incubus]

The sky is going to fall at this rate with the way Compy talks about this.

Only for years and years.

[tooneba]

Cubase is like exhibition gallery of all new software technologies. Other companies pick some of them and develop into simpler form.

[Compyfox]

My uninformed theory (for all of them really) is that as long as they're profitable they'll keep doing whatever they're doing to be profitable.

Steinberg is still at the top tier, and they're pushing out tools like crazy. This is also without question here.

The question is "what might/will happen from here on out".

And IMO the next logical steps that will happen, are the upper mentioned ones. There might be more (I'm fairly sure of that). But these are the ones that stand out the most IMO. And we've been warned various times throughout the years.

The sky is going to fall at this rate with the way Compy talks about this.

Sorry, I'm not on Gallic territory. And while Adelle is definitely cool, I don't see the "sky fall" yet.

In fact, I even welcome some of the possible future outcomes (drop of x86/32bit host, possible full recode of the host), with the exception of the possible drop of certain OS support (Windows 7 mainly). YMMV of course.

Steinberg would have to lower upgrade prices and frequency a lot, start fixing more of those decade-old bugs for free. Have you seen the change lists of the recent Logic updates? Looks like they're cleaning out their complete backlog. That's what Steinberg will have to start competing with very soon.

The market is changing rapidly. Free lifetime bug fixes and upgrades of the core DAW offered for both Sonar and FLStudio, rental models like Pro Tools, 3+ years product cycle at Ableton and Apple - other companies seem to have a better grasp on reality. Software is a service. So make sure your service quality is good and your users don't pay for every little step forward...

That is a not to underestimate point indeed.

The thing is, that negative criticism, or criticism in general, is seen as a "(vocal) minority". Even on large web boards like KVR and GS, the criticism on the Steinberg forum is also huge around major releases - only to be closed/deleted at some point. To a certain extent, it's annoying even to users that "don't have a problem" (and these people can be really aggressive!), or worse to some selected few.

The company also always has the pro-positive vibe "it's the best there is, yet". On the other hand however, under the hood there are still many issues that are either fixed in silence and then never talked about, or will never be addressed because it's "a feature, people just don't like change".

There is truth to all of this - and I really agree that Steinberg needs to step up the plate in certain sections rather than run ahead and insist that everything is all fine and dandy. But will we really see that? "Again" even, like we saw around the Steinberg/Pinnacle and then later the early Steinberg/Yamaha days? Good question.


I mean - I've had the same discussions in person at various trade shows, also regarding the paid .dot upgrades. And I was told several times "you're not forced to it" (which is true). "If you want to jump on new features and innovations sooner, then pay the 50EUR. If not, wait it out until the next .0 version".

The thing is however, that as of late, the .5 versions feel like "the actual full versions", while the .0 versions are either betas of the next major upgrade or whatever (personal opinion and all). Full of bugs and annoyances, features that didn't make it in time. Sometimes the .5 upgrade even de-cripples certain features that .0 users will never see unless they "jump up". It's a two edged blade. And this really showed with the introduction of the Mix Console in v7 - hence the huge outrage in various communities and the through-the-flower comment "a complete recode is inevitable" (see VST5.x to SX - we are at this stage again!). But I digress.


The other thing that is often well overlooked, is the economy. How do you pay your 100+ person team throughout the dry season if there is no paid upgrade? How long can you keep them afloat without income? What does the host team do while the plugin/instrument team is busy, etc?

So this is also a factor why there are paid interim updates. Not to mention Steinberg's biggest argument to go that route. To keep the development running, to keep your team paid. But looking at the oversaturated market in terms of hosts (and tools!)... when does this really backfire? And by that, i don't mean small casualties.


Valid points that are usually resented to talk about. Because it's a powder keg.
Yet we shouldn't ignore them as they add to the whole equation.

Cubase is like exhibition gallery of all new software technologies. Other companies pick some of them and develop into simpler form.

Hah! Good one...

But that has always been the case between the big 3 (now big 4: Avid, Apple, Steinberg, Presonus). In fact, the Mix Console since Cubase 7 is heavily inspired by the ProTools one (in a good way, with one feature I still miss - horizontal bypass, others still want an "unlimited plugin amount pre fader" as well), and else both Logic and Cubase always jumped between each other who had the better MIDI engine.

I still see the rivalry between the hosts as a good thing. This drives innovation. The only thing for me is, how it has been pulled off and whether or not it's usable on the long run. But this (in general) is determined by the users themselves. What works graciously to some, is a nightmare to others. What might a good possible feature implementation, is just a mere toy to others. Cue heated debates.

This doesn't mean that either of them is ultimately wrong - and this is where the company in question needs to find a middle way for sure. We as users barely have an influence on that though.





Good start so far.
But let us maybe get back to general speculation what might or might not happen in the future.

[woodsdenis]

Personally I dont have ant 32 bit plugins that I use now, surely all devs have updated by now. Thats a non issue for most users.