$xxx life time update.

[ATS]

hasn't FL Studio been like this forever?

edit: haha, just read other posts

[joeyfivecents]

I've been using FL Studio since 2003 and love it. I've been using Live since 2004 and love it as well. But, after I stepped up to Live Suite and got Push 1, here comes Ableton with Push 2 and their very expensive upgrade price....Makes me feel dumb for investing in Suite and Push when they are constantly adding new products and trying to charge me an exorbitant amount to stay current. Same goes for Reason; $129 to upgrade to Reason 9 after I've spent hundreds on RE's, etc. Makes me think I will probably never give those companies any more of my money and just let their stuff become obsolete while I sit back and use FL knowing I never have to spend another dime on it if I don't want to (and I will gladly buy their extra plugins whenever I can afford it). Obviously I'm going to be more loyal to FL. Seems like Ableton and some of these other companies would make more money if they gave lifetime free upgrades/updates if those percentages Scott put out are correct. I have no reason to think they aren't. Even a subscription model would be easier to stomach- I gladly pay for a subscription to Cycling 74 for Max. And guess what got me into Max? Max For Live. But if new users keep forking over hundreds of dollars for the newest version of Live and Push 2, 3, 4....then Ableton probably won't change a thing.

[Hink]

sorry I don't understand what your saying?

your saying for when other DAWs release a new major version, only 20-30% are people are upgrading, 70-80% are new customers. ... so something like only 20% of people upgrade their daws?

this seems very surprising to me, is this because people don't bother upgrading? or don't use the daw anymore? or are concerned about upgrading affect projects?

Then be surprised

Each year 20-30% of DAW sales are to upgrade customers. It doesn't matter how many years you spread this over, it's still 20-30%. It's not difficult to understand once you realise that:

1. Every year 100,000's of (mainly) boys turn 14 and want to be the next 'insert favorite artist here' and start looking at DAW software.
2. Most people are happy with the functions they purchased and don't need anything else (modern DAWs have 99.5% of everything anyone will ever need and it has been this way for years).
3. The percentage of DAW owners who spend time in forums represents a very small proportion of the user population. This distorts online discussions about everything DAW related, including how vital upgrades are.
4. A good percentage of customers are coming from Warez, and after feeling they supported the company with a clean conscience, go back to it as they don't feel like spending $199 every year.
5. People get married, have kids and get generally distracted from the pointy end of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, where music exists
7. Churn. If you are going to drop $199 on an update, why not spend $399 and try something new?
8. ...plus 1000 other reasons people are slow to upgrade, if ever.

Put simply, the influx of new customers far outweighs the number of people who choose to upgrade. It's one reason Image-Line has done so well with FL Studio.

Have you ever watched a news story about an event or issue you knew a lot about? How long was it before you started throwing doritos at the screen because it was so far from the truth? That's what it's like reading forum posts is like when you are on the other side of this industry. It's, almost all, misinformed speculation.

Think about why all the paid-for update companies are now exploring subscription models. There are two reasons, but the one relevant here is that the majority of customers are not upgrading.

Regards Scott

I dont doubt any of this tbh, but number 8 kind of throws off the logic of the rest of the well made posts imo. However if you get down to more specifics and start thinking about demographics you're comparing apples to oranges and again imo not doing FL any favors (please remember I have been an FL user since 2002 and bought my son his own in like 03). Sorry Scott but you just made the argument for those who say FL is a toy stronger with the first point.

Is that IL's target demographic, 14 year olds who have no clue where they are going or what they want? FTR, my son who was in his 20's never used it and lost interest too. So sell FL to a bunch of kids who will mess with it for a month then forget about it and likely not take advantage of the free upgrades? (of course some will come back years later and be quite happy).

Meanwhile how can you compare a 14 year old boy to the seasoned producer or studio owner with paying customers who use high end software like Nuendo, Sequoia, PT HD? I mean they have spent a hell of a lot more to construct a proper studio, have thousands and thousands in hardware and their platform is likely to stay the same because of many other factors including the fact that upgrading is just the cost of doing business, like the truck driver putting new tires on his truck.

But then again you're right in the 3rd point, these people do not spend time on music forums like KvR or GS, because they are working. They are in forums like Magix Samp/Sequoia and some have their own forums (like for instance Bob Katz), but not on a regular basis. I love the Magix forum, it's quite slow because there is little drama and all business but a fountain of info. One interesting thing that you point out in your 2nd post is very true in Magix forums, there are people many versions behind because they do not need the bells and whistles and are content with what they have.

So I agree with you but it's not the best comparison and imo not the best for IL's image

[joeyfivecents]

Hink! Old pal.Hope you are doing well. PM me your email address.

[jsp1979]

@Hink: I don't really understand your reasoning.

It might be the case that 14 year old boys may be a big market for Sonar, Cubase, Reaper, etc. in addition to FL Studio. Without any knowledge of the sales breakdowns for other companies, it seems unfair to imply IL has them as their "target" market. Plus, by default, some DAW must have the highest percentage of 14 year old newbies buying it, but it doesn't mean the software is somehow subpar.

There are lots of young "pro-ducahs" who come here all the time to blow a bunch of money on software they have no idea how to use. It doesn't mean what they buy are toys, but it's worth remembering that $1 from them buys just as much as $1 from Elton John*. A DAW company would be foolish to dismiss that part of the market if it is a sizable one.

*Disclaimer: Elton John is used here only as an illustration. This statement does not imply endorsement by Elton. Elton John only uses SAW Studio and Boz Digital vsts (when they're not on sale).

[chk071]

I've been using FL Studio since 2003 and love it. I've been using Live since 2004 and love it as well. But, after I stepped up to Live Suite and got Push 1, here comes Ableton with Push 2 and their very expensive upgrade price....Makes me feel dumb for investing in Suite and Push when they are constantly adding new products and trying to charge me an exorbitant amount to stay current. Same goes for Reason; $129 to upgrade to Reason 9 after I've spent hundreds on RE's, etc. Makes me think I will probably never give those companies any more of my money and just let their stuff become obsolete while I sit back and use FL knowing I never have to spend another dime on it if I don't want to (and I will gladly buy their extra plugins whenever I can afford it). Obviously I'm going to be more loyal to FL. Seems like Ableton and some of these other companies would make more money if they gave lifetime free upgrades/updates if those percentages Scott put out are correct. I have no reason to think they aren't.

As has been mentioned, it might a good business model for them, but not for others. FL Studio has a lot less employees than Steinberg for example. And they have a completely different business model. Cockos have a lot less employees, and yet another business model, but seem to be doing alright. I don't think there's the one correct way. What about the companies which used to do a DAW, but have gotten bankrupt, is their business model a failure? Or good, and they just had bad luck, or didn't do their advertising or PR craft?

First of all, i would say people choose FL Studio for the workflow, not for the business model. And the say surely holds true for other DAW's as well. I wouldn't want to work with FL Studio, no matter what the business model is. I'm used to another workflow, and i tried it out a couple of times, it doesn't suit me. Each to his like.

[aMUSEd]

Is that permanent? I thought the Sonar lifetime thing was a temporary buy, not a permanent thing.

But then again, I haven't exactly been keeping up with Sonar news.

The offer is good through the end of August. If you purchase it, you get lifetime upgrades. It's been implied that the offer won't be repeated in the future, but you never know.

I hope it will be repeated for Mac users when the Mac version comes out. They can't expect people to pay for lifetime updates before even knowing if it works well on Mac.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Hink]

@Hink: I don't really understand your reasoning.

It might be the case that 14 year old boys may be a big market for Sonar, Cubase, Reaper, etc. in addition to FL Studio. Without any knowledge of the sales breakdowns for other companies, it seems unfair to imply IL has them as their "target" market. Plus, by default, some DAW must have the highest percentage of 14 year old newbies buying it, but it doesn't mean the software is somehow subpar.

There are lots of young "pro-ducahs" who come here all the time to blow a bunch of money on software they have no idea how to use. It doesn't mean what they buy are toys, but it's worth remembering that $1 from them buys just as much as $1 from Elton John*. A DAW company would be foolish to dismiss that part of the market if it is a sizable one.

*Disclaimer: Elton John is used here only as an illustration. This statement does not imply endorsement by Elton. Elton John only uses SAW Studio and Boz Digital vsts (when they're not on sale).

well besides the fact that I never said it was sub par I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. You wont find me putting down FL, unfortunately it's manner of handling audio does not suit me but that's on me not them. However I myself have defended against the "FL is just a toy" since my first posts here on KvR (literally) and I just dont think if I were IL I would lead with that point, simple as that. Of course that's a demographic for everyone, but let's not go bragging about going after those who are gonna buy it and get bored, especially when you have that stupid "toy" stigma attached and you're a company with a no resale policy.

From a business point you're 100% correct, everyone's dollar is worth the same to the company. I worked music retail for years, making a living off of selling people more than they really need goes against my grain. When I worked for a mom and pop shop based more in lessons it was a joy selling a kid his first Yamaha acoustic. When I went to big stores and making my draw became more important than my customers. Selling a 15 year old girl a Korg Trinity because she with her divorced doctor dad when a Yamaha PSR anything would have been just as good tossed in the corner of her bedroom was blood money for me. (true story btw, I worked at MARS Music then) But if I wanted to keep my job that's what I had to do.

Just my 2 cents

[jsp1979]

Ah...so you were primarily questioning the communication strategy here.

Gotcha.

[incubus]

So everyone has their own opinion, we're almost exclusively talking about FL (instead of sonar) and the more lines of text = the one who knows the most.

Do I get a cookie?

[Image-Line]

Is that IL's target demographic, 14 year olds who have no clue where they are going or what they want?

Hink, you have read far too much into this. It was nothing more than a reminder that every year about 60 million kids, 30 Million boys, turn 14. And that is about the age where the obsession/bug bites for music production. The point - there is organic and ongoing growth potential for DAWs.

Regards Scott

[incubus]

So you're saying that you like young boys?

[Hink]

Is that IL's target demographic, 14 year olds who have no clue where they are going or what they want?

Hink, you have read far too much into this. It was nothing more than a reminder that every year about 60 million kids, 30 Million boys, turn 14. And that is about the age where the obsession/bug bites for music production. The point - there is organic and ongoing growth potential for DAWs.

Regards Scott

oh I completely understand and I do indeed benefit myself as a customer, but perhaps that baits the haters just a bit?

but then my bad for bringing it to attention

[Image-Line]

With imageline i believe it has worked because
1) the software is insanely popular
2) They have a huge catalog of products to support the company vs not getting update payments for FL studio
3) They don't have copy protection overhead costs.. just a basic designed in house reg file that is for show really

But Theo, we started with one product and there were lifetime free updates from day 1.

Regards Scott