I need advice: someone can get into trouble if it uses this for a song?

[Juno60]

Hello to all.

I will try to explain what I have on mind with an example:

If you check the rythms included on a Yamaha PSR-400, you will see that one (I don't remember which one) rhythm sounds almost like Sledgehammer, composed by Peter Gabriel.

In all these years I have heard examples of that in many home and entry level arranger keyboards, and I like to buy those type of gear. With that on mind, I want to ask three questions:


1 - If I use the sequencer of a keyboard using a "inspired or based" rhythm to compose a original song (with a original chord progression and melody line) and I dump the data to a MIDI file to use it on a computer sequencer, the original composer / band can sue me because the backing rhythm sounds like his song or a composer can sue only for chord progression / melody lines?.

2 - What can happen if I use a rhythm that it is based on 100% of a original song and I don't realize that? I say this because the name of the rhythm will say "Euro Dance 1", but in reality is almost a 1:1 copy of a popular song and maybe I don't recognize the rythm. (Note, on this case I will also do the same, original chords / melody).

3 - What if I use a backing rhythm that I recognise but I write a original song with it?.


Regards.

[deastman]

In general, copyright protects a "song", which is considered to be the melody and chord progression. Rhythms are not protected.

Furthermore, if you use any kind of preset on a keyboard, you are allowed to do that to make an original song. If the preset was "inspired by" a popular song, I wouldn't use it to make an exact copy of the original popular song, but beyond that, you should be in the clear.

[Juno60]

In general, copyright protects a "song", which is considered to be the melody and chord progression. Rhythms are not protected.

Furthermore, if you use any kind of preset on a keyboard, you are allowed to do that to make an original song. If the preset was "inspired by" a popular song, I wouldn't use it to make an exact copy of the original popular song, but beyond that, you should be in the clear.

Hello.

Many of my doubts have been resolved, many thanks, but I have a doubt regarding the last point, the use of the rhythms of famous songs for songwriting, I will explain:

I've ordered a Kawai GB-2, wich is a device designed for guitar practice. This unit can work in three modes:

1 - You select a rhythm with a predefined chord progression to practice with a electric guitar.
2 - You can select a rhythm and then you can input custom chords via the MIDI input.
3 - You can use it as a sound module.


I'm interested to choose the second option, and if you see the rythm chart:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwgj9wi5jgwaj ... t.jpg?dl=0

I can only recognise and confirm one or two songs with some videos of this unit,but the titles are too short to search the rest. I think that not all the rhythms have been based on known songs, because there are some presets like "16Beat" or "EsyRck" on that list.

So, can I ask some of your time? there's a video of the Kawai PocketBand (the same as the GB-2, but in pocket form):



you recognise some of those songs? I could use these rhythms to compose original songs?.

[deastman]

I could use these rhythms to compose original songs?.

Yes.

These aren't really songs. They're just common patterns in various styles. Use them to your heart's content!

[Juno60]

I could use these rhythms to compose original songs?.

Yes.

These aren't really songs. They're just common patterns in various styles. Use them to your heart's content!

I understand. Many thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

Regards.

[AdInfinitum]

This is similar to "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound/noise?"

Whether something is or is not copyright infringement is irrelevant if only YOU hear it or it is not publicly distributed or performed. Unless your work makes $$$, pretty much 99,999 out of 100,000 copyright owners will not bother spending money on a cease and desist, let alone a copyright infringement suit. Most of those suits are either tossed by the courts or the jury sides with the alleged infringer (see The recent case regarding Stairway to Heaven).

[Juno60]

This is similar to "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound/noise?"

Whether something is or is not copyright infringement is irrelevant if only YOU hear it or it is not publicly distributed or performed. Unless your work makes $$$, pretty much 99,999 out of 100,000 copyright owners will not bother spending money on a cease and desist, let alone a copyright infringement suit. Most of those suits are either tossed by the courts or the jury sides with the alleged infringer (see The recent case regarding Stairway to Heaven).

I'm not speaking here about using the same chord progressions, I will illustrate this post with a clear example:



(Applies also for the PSR-400) the user of that video have noticed it too, that rhythm sounds like Sledgehammer; obviously the rhythm will not have that name.

So, my concern was if I use one of those "famous" inspired rhythm for one of my songs BUT I fail to notice that, I'll be in trouble. On this case, imagine that I use a original chord progression / melody line done by me, BUT, I use that Sledgehammer rhythm (or other that mimics the 100% of the original instrumentation) and I don't know that fact; that's my problem here, know if I can get in trouble in that case.

[deastman]

Well, yes, that isn't just the same chords. It's the same song... Rhythm, chords, melody. That's obviously different than the first example you posted. I don't think you can take an entire demo song, play over it, and call it your own. Totally different from some basic chords and a basic beat looping over a measure or two.

[Juno60]

Well, yes, that isn't just the same chords. It's the same song... Rhythm, chords, melody. That's obviously different than the first example you posted. I don't think you can take an entire demo song, play over it, and call it your own. Totally different from some basic chords and a basic beat looping over a measure or two.

Yes, I know, but I was trying to explain my point to AdInfinitum; that "Sledgehammer rhythm" is one of the factory default rhythms, and the user is playing the chords in the left part and playing the brass to the right.

Now, think for a moment that I use that rhythm BUT I play my own chords and melody, with nothing to do with the original.
Because the rhythm is inspired on Sledgehammer and uses the same instrumentation or one that is quite similar to the original (i.e, the bass, guitar and other instruments sounds in THE SAME zones as the reference material) can be a problem if I use it on my original song, wich have a original chord progression and melody line?

[Shabdahbriah]

Now, think for a moment that I use that rhythm BUT I play my own chords and melody, with nothing to do with the original.
Because the rhythm is inspired on Sledgehammer and uses the same instrumentation or one that is quite similar to the original (i.e, the bass, guitar and other instruments sounds in THE SAME zones as the reference material) can be a problem if I use it on my original song, which have an original chord progression and melody line?

The "same zones" you're referring to, are essentially "cue points" (starts here/ends here) which again ~ are 'relative' to the rhythmic structure of the track (which is NOT "copy-writable"), but NOT directly imitating the "original", because you are making your own melody/chords. Another example would be using a "classic" regional/cultural 'rhythm', and playing any non-regional/cultural instrument over it. The structure of the rhythm may be self evident, but the instrumentation distinguishes it AS "unique".

Should not be a problem.

However, I would review the owners manual of your instrument, or check their online "terms of use" or ULA, to see if they spell out how the included "sounds" or tracks may be used. That would be MY starting point, as it should state clearly one way or another whether they are "license/royalty free", to use in your own compositions. If you can't find any references, consider contacting their support with your inquiry. Better safe than sorry.

[Juno60]

The "same zones" you're referring to, are essentially "cue points" (starts here/ends here) which again ~ are 'relative' to the rhythmic structure of the track (which is NOT "copy-writable"), but NOT directly imitating the "original", because you are making your own melody/chords. Another example would be using a "classic" regional/cultural 'rhythm', and playing any non-regional/cultural instrument over it. The structure of the rhythm may be self evident, but the instrumentation distinguishes it AS "unique".

Should not be a problem.

However, I would review the owners manual of your instrument, or check their online "terms of use" or ULA, to see if they spell out how the included "sounds" or tracks may be used. That would be MY starting point, as it should state clearly one way or another whether they are "license/royalty free", to use in your own compositions. If you can't find any references, consider contacting their support with your inquiry. Better safe than sorry.

Thanks for the info and the suggestion, I appreciate it. By other hand, I have contacted the Kawai support division as you suggested, and I asked them about this subject, I will update this post as soon as I receive a response.

[Juno60]

UPDATE: The Kawai customer support responded me a few hours ago, and they told me that there will be no problems to use the inbuilt rhythms to compose a entire song with a original chord progression and a original melody line, and then, upload it to Youtube or other sites.

Many thanks to all who participated in this thread. Regards.