Getting monitors and making the audio play nice

[danklim]

Hi, i’m looking to get some studio monitors/speakers for my small studio and would really really appreciate your input!

I’m in a small space now of about 12x12 (acoustically untreated), but will be moving to a room about two or three times the size soon. I record music in this space, with live instruments, singing vocals, and midi instruments. I’d like to have the ability to listen to a live monitor (w/o headphones) while i’m playing music, especially when I’ve added effects. I also do some mixing in logic, edit video, and use this room often for watching movies. I would like the speakers to be able to handle all of these functions well.

I have been using a little Behringer KT108 piano amp (connected to Scarlett 6i6 interface and macbook pro), which hasn’t been satisfactory. The main problems i’ve had with this are:

a) feedback- has been the bane of my studio on a daily basis lol. this makes playing music and listening to the live monitor impossible unless the volume is very low or i listen to headphones instead

b) volume- this goes hand in hand with feedback. I’m sure the amp could go louder, but whenever it gets to a volume where its easy to hear, it starts to screech feedback. For example, I was watching a movie last night and had difficulty hearing the softer dialogue, i got up and tried adjusting the volume several times throughout to find the “sweet spot” where i could hear it but not have feedback.

3) clarity- I’ve never used studio monitors but i imagine that they sound better than this amp. the sound is often muddled i think, sounds very different from when listening with headphones on. The amp is on the floor, so that could be part of the issue?

Now, i’m wondering if better speakers will fix these problems and/or if because of the room i’m playing in it is just unavoidable to have these issues. I’ve been looking at the JBL 305 studio monitors (not really sure if studio monitors are the best way to go, just seems good based on reviews), it would be great if you could provide some guidance on whether these would be a good choice, or if there are any other solutions you recommend.

Also, here are some specific questions:

1. Is it possible to avoid these feedback problems in such a small room? When i move to the larger room, will that make a big difference with the feedback issue? Is acoustically treating the room necessary?

2. Will upgrading my speakers make a big difference with these issues?

3. Are studio monitors the best type of speaker to go with for these purposes? Some people at guitar center were recommending different things like larger amps or PA system and using mixer instead of interface, but idk about all of that. if i get studio monitors, should i get subwoofers in addition?

4. Can studio monitors work well for live monitoring of playing all these instruments:
singing (often with reverb and other effects)
electronic drums
keyboard
electric guitar
using a loop pedal to build these sounds together live
( I usually play rock/pop/jazz/folk and i don’t need it to be too loud or have exceptional bass or anything like that but like to mess with synths and have it loud enough, will need to be respectful of neighbors concerning volume)

5. Can one set of speakers handle all of these functions well or would i need different types of speakers for different jobs? Would the JBL 305 be good for both this smaller room and the larger room?

(PS I think that my mic setup may be helpful for diagnosing the feedback issue: I am currently using a shotgun mic Audio-Technica AT875R Line + Gradient Condenser Microphone as my main microphone, recently switched from using a condenser microphone because i often record video while recording and make all my videos with green screens and the shotgun mic makes it easier to stay out of the camera shot. The mic is aimed away from the amp in the same direction, about 5 ft away from amp.

(i don’t think this microphone is really made for music, it seems to be working alright but would also appreciate if you have input on this mic choice))

There is also a cheap condenser microphone a few feet to the side of the amplifier.)


Thank you soooo much for your help!

[BertKoor]

Welcome, danklim!

I’m in a small space now of about 12x12 (acoustically untreated), but will be moving to a room about two or three times the size soon.

This is sort of a dilemma... For a small-ish room like 3x4 meters I'd advice nearfield monitors with a cone size of 6 inch. For a substantially bigger room you could go for 8 inch speakers. Or get the smaller ones now and add a separate subwoofer later.

I have been using a little Behringer KT108 piano amp [...] I’ve never used studio monitors but i imagine that they sound better than this amp. the sound is often muddled i think, sounds very different from when listening with headphones on.

M'kay.. whatever you replace it with, it will be a huge improvement!

I’ve been looking at the JBL 305 studio monitors

I've looked up some reviews and this looks to be affordable yet high quality. So for a first set of nearfield studio monitors you could do worse.

What I always advice: go to a real shop that sells stuff like this (GuitarCenter, or whatever musical instruments shop is nearby) and ask for a demo. Bring a CD with some music you know really well and compare some sets of monitors. They will sound different. Look out especially for excessive bass or highs. Initially that will trigger your "better" nerve, but it will be too much on the long run. You want speakers that let you honestly hear what you feed them, and tell the truth how it really sounds. Figures on paper cannot tell you how they really sound. And the model I like the most could be the worst sounding for you.

The amp is on the floor

For a keyboard practice amp that's ok. But nearfield monitors work best if the difference between the direct sound and first reflection is well over a factor 3. So for instance if you sit at a desk and the speakers are on the same desk, that will be like one meter. Reflections may come from the ceiling or wall behind you, and if that's like two meters (sound has to travel that distance twice) than all is fine. You will then basically only hear the direct sound near you, and reflections are not that loud anymore. But once you stand up and go to the other end of the room at your green screen, then the acoustical setup is totally different. You'll still hear everything ofcourse, but you are no longer at the optimal position. Especially if you watch movies a lot, it could be worth putting the speakers on stands next to the screen so they are at ear level. And you need to have reflections under control. Carpets, curtains, furniture... that alone makes a massive difference in any room's acoustics.

a) feedback- has been the bane of my studio on a daily basis lol. this makes playing music and listening to the live monitor impossible unless the volume is very low or i listen to headphones instead

Better monitors will make a big difference here. I suspect the piano amp has a big bump in its frequency response exactly where your mike has one as well. Both added will easily give feedback.
But do you constantly need to hear / record the mike? Just mute it (or lower the gain knob on the interface) and feedback cannot occur anymore. If you have trouble finding the proper gain knob position, you might consider a small mixer that has a mute button per channel. If you often need so swap gear to connect to the interface, maybe a somewhat bigger mixer is something for you.

So good luck! I hope any of this helped you.

[danklim]

Hi BertKoor, thank you sooo much! I cant say how much i appreciate you taking the time to write all of this, and it is super helpful!

Im leaning towards the jbl 305s for now and adding a seperate subwoofer later, but will listen to some monitors at guitarcenter before making a decision. I want to make sure i get the setup in my room right too, heres a couple of things to follow up on your reply:

"Better monitors will make a big difference here. I suspect the piano amp has a big bump in its frequency response exactly where your mike has one as well. Both added will easily give feedback."
----- I'm not sure what this means. Is it important that i understand this or is it sufficient to just know that the better monitors will have less feedback than the keyboard amp? Is there anything i should change about the microphone to change its frequency response/decrease feedback?

And do you think that just changing the monitors should eliminate most of the feedback issue?

"But do you constantly need to hear / record the mike? Just mute it (or lower the gain knob on the interface) and feedback cannot occur anymore. If you have trouble finding the proper gain knob position, you might consider a small mixer that has a mute button per channel. If you often need so swap gear to connect to the interface, maybe a somewhat bigger mixer is something for you."
-------- i dont always need to hear the microphone, its just helpful/fun when i want to hear the effects if im using reverb or something (and helpful to have it ready to record when im looping other instruments). I can turn the knob down when im not using the microphone, and thats what i should have done when watching the movie but didnt think of it. thanks for the suggestion.

" nearfield monitors work best if the difference between the direct sound and first reflection is well over a factor 3. So for instance if you sit at a desk and the speakers are on the same desk, that will be like one meter. Reflections may come from the ceiling or wall behind you, and if that's like two meters (sound has to travel that distance twice) than all is fine. You will then basically only hear the direct sound near you, and reflections are not that loud anymore. But once you stand up and go to the other end of the room at your green screen, then the acoustical setup is totally different. You'll still hear everything ofcourse, but you are no longer at the optimal position. Especially if you watch movies a lot, it could be worth putting the speakers on stands next to the screen so they are at ear level. And you need to have reflections under control. Carpets, curtains, furniture... that alone makes a massive difference in any room's acoustics."
----- Ok, so i understand that when standing farther from the speakers and closer to the green screen, that will make the first direct sound take longer to reach my ears, and the reflection will be less than factor of three because i'll close to the wall where the sound will bounce off of. Will the fact that the green screens are cloth do much to dampen that reflective sound? I imagine that it would but not that much, but if there was more material behind the green screens then it would make the sound quality better because there wouldnt be much reflected sound to hear, right? And, if the feedback isnt solved by just changing to the monitors, that would also be helpful for reducing the feedback because the sound bouncing off the wall and into the mic is likely the source of the feedback. This all makes sense right?

And the last thing i'm still wondering is whether studio monitors will be sufficient for live monitoring of instruments, including e-drums, synths, vocals and electric guitar. I'd really like to be able to loop these instruments together and hear them without having to have headphones on every time.

Thanks again and enjoy your day!!

[danklim]

Hi BertKoor, thank you sooo much! I cant say how much i appreciate you taking the time to write all of this, and it is super helpful!

Im leaning towards the jbl 305s for now and adding a seperate subwoofer later, but will listen to some monitors at guitarcenter before making a decision. I want to make sure i get the setup in my room right too, heres a couple of things to follow up on your reply:

"Better monitors will make a big difference here. I suspect the piano amp has a big bump in its frequency response exactly where your mike has one as well. Both added will easily give feedback."
----- I'm not sure what this means. Is it important that i understand this or is it sufficient to just know that the better monitors will have less feedback than the keyboard amp? Is there anything i should change about the microphone to change its frequency response/decrease feedback?

And do you think that just changing the monitors should eliminate most of the feedback issue?

"But do you constantly need to hear / record the mike? Just mute it (or lower the gain knob on the interface) and feedback cannot occur anymore. If you have trouble finding the proper gain knob position, you might consider a small mixer that has a mute button per channel. If you often need so swap gear to connect to the interface, maybe a somewhat bigger mixer is something for you."
-------- i dont always need to hear the microphone, its just helpful/fun when i want to hear the effects if im using reverb or something (and helpful to have it ready to record when im looping other instruments). I can turn the knob down when im not using the microphone, and thats what i should have done when watching the movie but didnt think of it. thanks for the suggestion.

" nearfield monitors work best if the difference between the direct sound and first reflection is well over a factor 3. So for instance if you sit at a desk and the speakers are on the same desk, that will be like one meter. Reflections may come from the ceiling or wall behind you, and if that's like two meters (sound has to travel that distance twice) than all is fine. You will then basically only hear the direct sound near you, and reflections are not that loud anymore. But once you stand up and go to the other end of the room at your green screen, then the acoustical setup is totally different. You'll still hear everything ofcourse, but you are no longer at the optimal position. Especially if you watch movies a lot, it could be worth putting the speakers on stands next to the screen so they are at ear level. And you need to have reflections under control. Carpets, curtains, furniture... that alone makes a massive difference in any room's acoustics."
----- Ok, so i understand that when standing farther from the speakers and closer to the green screen, that will make the first direct sound take longer to reach my ears, and the reflection will be less than factor of three because i'll close to the wall where the sound will bounce off of. Will the fact that the green screens are cloth do much to dampen that reflective sound? I imagine that it would but not that much, but if there was more material behind the green screens then it would make the sound quality better because there wouldnt be much reflected sound to hear, right? And, if the feedback isnt solved by just changing to the monitors, that would also be helpful for reducing the feedback because the sound bouncing off the wall and into the mic is likely the source of the feedback. This all makes sense right?

And the last thing i'm still wondering is whether studio monitors will be sufficient for live monitoring of instruments, including e-drums, synths, vocals and electric guitar. I'd really like to be able to loop these instruments together and hear them without having to have headphones on every time.

Thanks again and enjoy your day!!

[BertKoor]

Hi again,

is it sufficient to just know that the better monitors will have less feedback than the keyboard amp?

Well, feedback is complex, it depends on so many factors... In general, the chances of feedback occurring reduce if:
* the mike has a flat frequency response and is not omni-directional
* the speaker has a flat frequency response

With frequency responses being flat, there is no frequency slightly louder than others. Any frequency sticking out will tend to generate feedback. In absence of that, you can turn up the volume much further before feedback will occur.

But some mikes are designed to be used in a dead silent room and pick up little nuances of a vocal performance, where the singer has to wear headphones. Other mikes are designed to be used on stage where the vocalist is screaming into it in close proximity to monitoring speakers so the singer hears himself rather loud. The second type is far less sensitive to feedback. Horses for courses...

Will the fact that the green screens are cloth do much to dampen that reflective sound?

I imagine so yeah. But in your situation you don't need to get overly obsessed by that.

whether studio monitors will be sufficient for live monitoring of instruments, including e-drums, synths, vocals and electric guitar. I'd really like to be able to loop these instruments together and hear them without having to have headphones on every time.

Let's say their uses do not exclude that. Nearfield monitors are made especially for the mixing & mastering stages of music production, where it is essential to get a fair representation of how your album will sound on the average hifi set. And I would be very happy if I can hear a synth, e-drum or guitar without compromises in quality. Actually: this IS what I use in my private home studio.

But I understand that a guy working at GuitarCenter suggests a small PA set for you. Also not a bad thing imho. These are more designed to be carried around and not get damaged that easily, while the utmost sound quality is a bit less important. Don't rule this option out yet. Really, you'd have to hear them side by side.