WHOA! Your host CAN NOT do this...

[nfx]

Amen Hink.

It's about the journey that music provides that is important.

I have many friends and family not into music that just do not "get it" when I hear a beautiful lyric or melody. I am moved and they are not. I suspect a lot of people in these forums have non-musical friends as well. You know they like whats hot or cool but can't understand why that obscure Willie Nelson track is on your playlist

My desire to understand how to speak the language of music is what drives me. To have a voice (musically) to express myself is one of the greatest things to happen to me in my life.

I may not be a great musician, and I'm definitely not a performer. But I am able to create something from nothing and it makes me feel good.

Creation is a soul fulfilling action. I have just had a journey that led me to create my work of art. Like my child, it has parts of me in it. Not DNA but soul.

Performance is an ego fulfilling action. Hey look at me and dig this! I like people to say "I really like that track!" sure it makes me feel good. But I do music for me first.

Maybe someday, my musical chops will be so highly developed that I will become dulled, uninspired and jealous of those who havent lost the spark yet. But until that day, I can't begrudge anyone for seeking out any outlet for expression.

[haysuess]

You are a f**king moron. What you are saying is that all the millions of home musicians are not making music because nobody but them has heard their music. If you're so fed up with "Uninspiring VST's" then why don't you:

a) Stay away from them
b) Make your own awesome VST effect

There is virtually nothing left to make a synthesized version of. There is a synth version of everything. I agree that a lot of synth instruments sound like crap, but there are plenty that if I showed you you wouldn't know the difference between them a real one. Music can be nothing but a sine wave at 2 different frequencies if you wanted it to. If you're talking about widely accepted music that is on the top 10 list on MTV's Total Request Live then that's something completely different. Who are you to criticize people's work?

[jeffn1]

I have a slightly different view of this topic. I am amazed and grateful about the enormous range of tools (especially sampled and synthesized sounds) at my disposal to create original music. There are so many unexplored compositional possibilities we have with the tools currently available.

I tend to be critical of people who are quick to criticize other peoples' music/sounds as being "dated". This creates a view to music like "fashion", suggesting the most important thing is to keep up with current trends/technology.

There is so much room to explore the tools we have, I think we should place a little less emphasis on cutting edge technology and be a little less critical of technology that is more than a year old. We should try to do things a little different (I guess I am little critical of techno dance music, which sounds very similar and uninspiring to my ears, but that may just be my bias).

Anyway, this might not be much different from what other people are saying, but its my $.02.

JeffN

[Meffy]

[Please don't take this as an offended reaction -- I'm kind of amused to find myself in the position of antique or time traveller, and figure it's worthwhile chiming in with a few semi-coherent thoughts. Not aimed at anyone. Just rambling a bit. I'm also not trying to play "aged authority" -- just because I've been playing with this stuff forever doesn't mean I'm any good at it! :-) ]

Good thread here. Interesting ideas all around.

Before computers music was created with tape loops in labratories using equipment and technics that would seem stone age to us.

Well, not to all of us. A few of us are still alive who learned on those slabs of sandstone and chunks of granite. I personally used to flake my own splicing blades out of obsidian.

Seriously, though: some of us remember when a Moog Modular was "the latest thing" and used to do tape composition before that... Can't speak for the real musicians here, but as a lifelong amateur I've followed each development I could. One thing kept coming up: at each phase, some decried the latest state of affairs, saying it was destroying music.

It's what some folks said about the first hardware synths too. Music lives yet, changed but struggling onward.

To some extent I agree that things are, for want of a better phrase, "too easy." But it's not unique; influxes of untalented or unspectacular hobbyists (that would be me) into creative fields have occurred thoughout history. Each time it happens provokes a lot of outcry, maybe partially justified. But generally the creative fields have weathered the storm.

Something like this happened with woodworking in the 1800s, I think, when wealthy dilettantes bought sets of miniature luxury tools almost too fine to use. Carpentry survived. (Nowadays you can buy reproductions of these little guys if you're wealthy enough. Go figure.)

Similar things have happened over and over in music, too.

"Bah, this rock 'n' roll noise isn't real music, it's killing entertainment. Who ever heard of deliberately distorting sound? It's an outrage against taste and a violation of sensible engineering practice."

"Magnus chord organ? Throw it out! Awful stuff. And those dreadful flutophones the children play in school these days..."

"Why must you practice that accordion where it can frighten the schoolchildren? Amateur village bands like yours are destroying music, I tell you."

"Pan, these 'pipes' of yours are letting just any doltish kid get into music. Mark my words, before long you won't be able to chase a nymph ten paces without some vacuous rustic popping up and tootling at you!"

And yes, I've said this kind of thing. Never quite believed myself. ;-)

Sure, there's a lot of junk music around. It was ever thus... but there are a heck of a lot of us people around lately too, and that doubtless exaggerates cultural avalanches of this sort.

On a related point: Guilty. I get caught up in the game of "latest thing" too. Gear lust is fun to indulge... must avoid letting it take the focus! Chalk it up to a fascination with gizmos and too darned many group buy bargains. (I feel terrible joining those, just terrible. Almost.)

There! Got to be at least four and a half cents' worth. *whew*

Meffy

[spacefox]

[quote=Robot Randolph]These are no longer tools, they are status items. They are things to help make you feel superior, godlike.[/quote]

These are still tools, as well as being status items for some. People still make music with them, some of it quite good. Rants, gearlust or endless threas about this or that won't change that. And as long as good, interesting music is made, what difference does any of it make?


Losing the ability to be amazed has nothing to do with technology. Hating the music you make has nothing do with technology. Being cynic or narrow-minded or shallow has nothing to do with it either. Like writing songs, people managed to do those things long before there were computers.

[Robert Randolph]

Well, the thread is pointless now, the last few posters have completely distorted it *shrug*.

Perhaps there is something to people learning the english language is well.

[kilroy]

You are a f**king moron.

Umm...your coming off as a bit of a bleeding putz starting on like this, mate.

[Hink]

Well, the thread is pointless now, the last few posters have completely distorted it *shrug*.

Perhaps there is something to people learning the english language is well.

well I'm one of the last few posters, but I don't believe I've distorted anything. The fact is you are quite passionate about this and that's fine. But I'm not you, I'm more passionate about my music. I too am one of those who started long before digital came about, in fact the first use of the term digital is that of the alarm clocks that had the digits flip on cards. When I was in school we didn't have calculators. But I go with the flow, I fought digital recording up until 1998....that's when I realized the only one I was hurting was me. Why not take advantage of technology if it helps and gives me more time to enjoy my passion...playing gi-tar. But I can't put down the one who derives pleasure from their passion of making electronic music. They have the same right of happiness as me, and their passion is just as valid as mine. Who am I to judge one's art? Or you for that matter, no offense or disrespect intended.

[Rellik]

Ok, I just read through this whole thread, so you better listen to my following comments or I just wasted a lot of time .

First of all, I just have to mention that not all of us have the luxury of being able to chase after the latest and greatest thing. When I read the title of the thread, I said to myself "I hope this is referring to FL Studio or something free, otherwise it doesn't apply to me, oh well." Yes, there's fun to be had in playing around with new and amazing tools; is that such a problem? I can sit for hours and play the different patches of z3ta+ even though I can't use it in a song because of the demo limitations. And yet I also turn out songs, which I enjoy and share with others, and I improve along the way.

No, my music is not performed. Even if all of us were INCLINED to perform live, had the SKILL to do it, and had an AUDIENCE, there's still the matter of the large sums of money required to buy some sort of instrument (MIDI controller, Amps, Mixers, and all that). But is it still music? Absolutely. Even before I got into recording parts by hand, which rules by the way , my music was always human, because it was made with a human mind, with human emotion. I'd like to try performing some day, but I will continue to consider myself a musician even if that day doesn't come for a long time (or even ever).

When I make my music, besides trying to make the best melody and emotional impact, I also try to make it SOUND as good as possible. The sound is also part of the music; you can play silence all you want, it's not going to be very engaging. That's why having good tools is so important; orchestral music would not be as popular if the orchestral texture wasn't so rich and woody and resonant. Imagine orchestral played by a a hundred rubber bands; it would be interesting, but it wouldn't survive for hundreds of years.

I agree that there is some appeal in just making music for fun and ignoring the finnesse. But for me, there is more to music than just puttering about and enjoying myself (although it's the main part ). I like making a product that I can be proud of; I like receiving fan e-mail; I like having my songs used for things, being asked to make songs for people because they like my work, maybe even someday I will make a living from my endeavours. Those things are all part of the game too. Just because music sounds better doesn't mean it's 'impure' or 'commercialized'.

And that about sums up what I have to say (or what I can remember by the time I've finished reading the whole thread and forgetting exactly what was said in the first post).

[Robert Randolph]

This wasnt about technology being bad, or good... or someone's "art" being invalid or not. I guess people pick up on bits and peices that they are offended by (or guilty of) and harp on it... without taking it in context of the entire idea... which is one of the very things I was talking about.

edit: I do thank everyone for their perspectives, but please take the thoughts of the original post in context of the ENTIRE post. I love to hear opinions on things, but this will quickly turn into a flame war if it turns into a thread about validity of XXX.

I simply wanted to make conscious the terrible attitude developing among people.... and make aware to many KVR's that performing musicians do still indeed exist, and to most people that's what music is.

[Hink]

well naturally every thread will find it's own path when once started, I'm sorry you feel it slipped away from where you wanted it to..

[Robert Randolph]

Relik, can we hear your music? Is it in the music cafe? Can you put some there? You seem very passionate about your music and such, Im very interested in what you make... passion always makes good sounds come together in a great way

[Hink]

I simply wanted to make conscious the terrible attitude developing among people.... and make aware to many KVR's that performing musicians do still indeed exist, and to most people that's what music is.

yes, yes we do still exist. Even better life is a circle what's in today is out tomorrow, it's true that those who choose not to perform or play an instrument are hurting themselves as much as those who balk at technology....but then you and me are fortunate right? We have our feet in both worlds...

[Rellik]

Relik, can we hear your music? Is it in the music cafe? Can you put some there? You seem very passionate about your music and such, Im very interested in what you make... passion always makes good sounds come together in a great way

Yeah, I had a couple in the Music Cafe, but not lately. You can definitely hear some of my music. Here's something I've been working on lately: http://www.tjhsst.edu/~alederer/Music/R ... incipa.mp3. All the music I have currently uploaded can be found at http://www.tjhsst.edu/~alederer/Music/. I should warn you that I don't actually finish songs as much as I should, because I get new ideas for songs way too quickly to stay interested in the song I had just been working on (this is probably partly due to the fact that my musicianship is still in the process of maturing).

Anyway, if my music is not to the general liking, or is too 'mainstream' and not avante-garde enough (I make what sounds good to me, even if it's *horror* pop or trance), I hope that it won't undermine what I was trying to say in my post.

[Robert Randolph]

sounds great imo.