Now Hive is here, is it RIP Sylenth?

[nIGhT-SoN]

To me it sounds strange when a developer wishes that another developer would implement a better protection so he can be more successful. At least that's what I've understood from last 3-4 pages. Wouldn't it be better to come up with something that people would want to use more than the product of your competition? Maybe most people don't think Hive brings a lot more to the table than Sylenth1 to buy it and make the switch. Also, there are people who bought tons of preset packs for Sylenth1, you have to come with something more to convince them to give up on it.

I don't know but that's what my logic says.

[Cinebient]

No, of course not. But there are certain common aspects of good gui's...

Well, you brought up faux hardware. Sure, U-he have plenty of that and it's lovely.

But how is it relevant to HIVE?

Yes. While of course not every plugin gui has to emulate hardware, I think it would have been better in the case of Hive. Virtual synthesizers are virtual editions of devices, whether those really exist in hardware or not. I think Hive would appeal more if it had a Sylenth1-like gui. The gui is important to many people. Sylenth1 simply looks more solid and robust than Hive, and people might apply that to the sound as well, even if there is nothing to it. Not sure about this specific case. I do think Hive sounds different, the stereo panorama sounded different to me, which might have to do with the osc setup (no pan knob for subs for instance). Detuning also seemed different.

But is that not a personal thing.
I prefer more the Sci-Fi, modern flat design instead of recreating virtual knobs.
Indeed i wonder why we have so much virtual knobs instead of sliders which works with pointer and multi-touch etc.
I f.e. love the Moog Model 15 app and it sounds just awesome but doesn't like the emulated GUI.
I don't like skeumorphism too much! But hey, that is a personal thing.
Most of the world doesn't care and create stuff while we talking about "black or white"

[fluffy_little_something]

How does U-he even know how much sales it misses because of Sylenth1 pirating, if any?

[Dasheesh]

Holy crap is this still going on? What time is it in Germany? Urs have you been drinking buddy? If not you might want to start. You are being trolled.

[Urs]

And, Urs, i don't mean no offense towards you, but you don't seem to be very receptive when talking about potential downsides people perceive in u-he's products, otherwise you'd have a more open ear to what people think about Hive, ESPECIALLY when they compare it to Sylenth1, which, obviously, was kind of an orientation point in Hive's development.

So then name things where Hive lacks. But don't use subjective attributes. I can not magically transform subjective attributes into bugfixes, feature requests or other noteworthy updates.

Unfortunately with synthesizers we then need to operate on a very technical level: Spectrum, harmonic distortion, analysis of various factors that influence *objective* sound quality. However, by those standards we've done the best job we could.

It's not uncommon however that people prefer some "lesser" qualities, such as a certain amount of aliasing, a certain amount of non-ideal feedback and all of that. But these things can not be explained with attributes such as "metallic/warm/muddy", even though for some they might lead to that perception. We can only go by example, such as direct comparisons of key aspects - in other words: Good audio examples, or even preset files.

Just, those comparisons have never really happened, apart from things like that Youtube video where the difference was too obvious and maybe in a way too complex context. Instead it's always this stupid and useless grinding of subjective preference, which isn't backed up by useful examples.

My wife will beat me, but I'd pay good money for critique that I can work with.

[Urs]

Holy crap is this still going on? What time is it in Germany? Urs have you been drinking buddy? If not you might want to start. You are being trolled.

All good, waiting for a build to finish... but going home shortly...

[Urs]

How does U-he even know how much sales it misses because of Sylenth1 pirating, if any?

We don't. But we have data/reports/estimates that suggest that a crack of one software may hurt the sales of the direct competition more than the sales of that actual software (the over-stressed alleged advertisment effect of piracy may play a role here, after all).

[pdxindy]

Also, there are people who bought tons of preset packs for Sylenth1, you have to come with something more to convince them to give up on it.

There are even more people who downloaded them for free... along with Sylenth.

But if v3 is not cracked, then its days are numbered...

Good Copy Protection is the true Sylenth killer

[chk071]

And, Urs, i don't mean no offense towards you, but you don't seem to be very receptive when talking about potential downsides people perceive in u-he's products, otherwise you'd have a more open ear to what people think about Hive, ESPECIALLY when they compare it to Sylenth1, which, obviously, was kind of an orientation point in Hive's development.

So then name things where Hive lacks. But don't use subjective attributes. I can not magically transform subjective attributes into bugfixes, feature requests or other noteworthy updates.

How am i supposed to describe sound in non-subjective attributes? I already said that Hive sounds harsh to me, metallic, too weighty for certain unison sounds. Frankly, it has been a while now though that i demo'd it in the public beta phase. But i just didn't like its sound at that time. I didn't like the filters very much, i didn't like how the filter envelope behavior was. I remember it to be a bit dry, blunt, and not really what i'd call juicy, or bangy. See if i was supposed to describe which i didn't like about a certain wine, then you might just like what i described as non-pleasant to me. Or you don't even understand me, because i'm using terms which you wouldn't have associated with the flavour, or the way it feels on the tongue.

Anyway, i'm sure many people like Hive for what it is (interestingly the same people who seem to be fond of u-he synths in general, which, again, poses the question about the target audience), and that's fair enough. I didn't quite like it. It's how it is.

[Urs]

To me it sounds strange when a developer wishes that another developer would implement a better protection so he can be more successful. At least that's what I've understood from last 3-4 pages. Wouldn't it be better to come up with something that people would want to use more than the product of your competition? Maybe most people don't think Hive brings a lot more to the table than Sylenth1 to buy it and make the switch. Also, there are people who bought tons of preset packs for Sylenth1, you have to come with something more to convince them to give up on it.

I don't know but that's what my logic says.

If since Hive came out, 10 boys had come of age to start dabbling with music production and chose a crack of Sylenth over the investment into Hive, we've lost almost a week worth of a developer. I believe it's not just boys, it's more than ten. It might just be a little thing, but it's a thing.

However, as I said, Hive is doing very well, there's no complaint on my side. More so than a better copy protection for the competition I think that a facelift will help make more Hive users happy.

In general also I don't believe much in the exclusivity of competition. I think that someone who owns Sylenth can be very happy with Hive as well and vice versa. In my opinion the scope of preset banks and maybe patch design in general has quite diverged between the two, so why not get both.

[Urs]

How am i supposed to describe sound in non-subjective attributes? I already said that Hive sounds harsh to me, metallic, too weighty for certain unison sounds. Frankly, it has been a while now though that i demo'd it in the public beta phase. But i just didn't like its sound at that time. I didn't like the filters very much, i didn't like how the filter envelope behavior was. I remember it to be a bit dry, blunt, and not really what i'd call juicy, or bangy. See if i was supposed to describe which i didn't like about a certain wine, then you might just like what i described as non-pleasant to me. Or you don't even understand me, because i'm using terms which you wouldn't have associated with the flavour, or the way it feels on the tongue.

Well, yes, that's all stuff I can't work with.

I wished there were people who don't like Hive but want to make it work for them. Unfortunately I mostly see people that are either very happy or not interested.

[fluffy_little_something]

Also, there are people who bought tons of preset packs for Sylenth1, you have to come with something more to convince them to give up on it.

There are even more people who downloaded them for free... along with Sylenth.

But if v3 is not cracked, then its days are numbered...

Good Copy Protection is the true Sylenth killer

So. has U-he registered an increase in sales since v3 of Sylenth1 was introduced? Then again, since there were hardly any improvements in the synth as such, maybe pirates don't care about v3, anyway.

[aumordia]

There seem to be a couple of confused angles being debated in this thread which I don't think I grasped at first. There are a couple of ways you can view the "Did Hive kill Sylenth1" question.

1. Did Hive become more commercially successful / ubiquitous than Sylenth1? NO.
2. Is Hive a viable alternative to Sylenth1? To me the answer here is obviously "yes," but some people say it sounds too "metallic" or whatever, which I think is nonsense. I think there are quite a few viable alternatives to Sylenth1 actually.
3. Would you rather be an LD customer or a U-he customer? This isn't actually the thread topic, but it seems to be a bone of contention anyway. FWIW, I think U-he is objectively way more engaged -- just going by post counts here on KVR he's almost 20 times as active -- and he's built this into his main gig, whereas Lennar is pretty clearly doing it on the side. U-he is also generally much more rapid with updates, and let's you run your synths on any number of machines... again, not the thread topic, but it seems like U-he has a clear advantage here.
4. Is Hive technically superior / more featured than Sylenth1? I think this is probably a "yes" as well.
5. Does Hive sound better, or as good, as Sylenth1? Woooo boy, folks have opinions here. I personally judge things in the context of finished songs, and from that angle they appear interchangeable to me, but YMMV.
6. Does Hive look better / have a better UI than Sylenth1? I think Hive had the old Sylenth1 beat here, but the new Sylenth1 beats Hive.
7. Why hasn't Hive commercially supplanted Sylenth1? This is the perspective I wanted to contribute. Some people say presets, but tons of things have great presets. Some say piracy, but by that logic Reaper would be the DAW king. Some say Sylenth1 just sounds better, or has a better UI, or whatever -- but see the above points (I certainly think the difference is overblown).

Hopefully we're all agreed on point 1 above. Hopefully. Points 2-6 are debatable, although I naturally think I'm correct But what I think is actually most interesting is point 7. I said earlier that I was surprised when I found myself buying Sylenth1, I was sure something would have supplanted it, and I really thought Hive would be the one to do that, yet it didn't. For me, the key thing is "ergonomics," which I've tried to express metaphorically -- in plain English, I think the real killer advantage Sylenth1 has it very smartly decided what not to let you do, what features to not implement. That, plus good sound and CPU usage, is the key. This is a point that seems to be completely anathema to your average KVRian, but I really think it's true, or at least worth considering.

Sylenth1 is practically like bumper-lane bowling -- it doesn't let you throw gutter balls. Consider the skill level of your modal producer (pro or not), and I think the appeal of this becomes self evident. Hive, on the other hand, gives you more power, but it takes away the bumpers in the process.

So if there's an 8th question, it's "Will Hive ever kill Sylenth1?" If my assessment is correct, the answer is No, not unless U-he goes against it's own culture and adds more restrictions to Hive.

Again, I may well just sell off Sylenth1 to get Omnisphere, so I'm not deeply invested in LD's baby here. Pretty fascinating to see how people have reacted though

[fluffy_little_something]

Maybe the new Predator will be the Hive and Sylenth1 killer I am pretty sure it will have supersaw and all that shit as well

[chk071]

How am i supposed to describe sound in non-subjective attributes? I already said that Hive sounds harsh to me, metallic, too weighty for certain unison sounds. Frankly, it has been a while now though that i demo'd it in the public beta phase. But i just didn't like its sound at that time. I didn't like the filters very much, i didn't like how the filter envelope behavior was. I remember it to be a bit dry, blunt, and not really what i'd call juicy, or bangy. See if i was supposed to describe which i didn't like about a certain wine, then you might just like what i described as non-pleasant to me. Or you don't even understand me, because i'm using terms which you wouldn't have associated with the flavour, or the way it feels on the tongue.

Well, yes, that's all stuff I can't work with.

I wished there were people who don't like Hive but want to make it work for them. Unfortunately I mostly see people that are either very happy or not interested.

Not sure if there would be a point anyway. I mean, when it's so obvious that you dislike the sound of a synth, then there is no point to try to improve on something others are content with, and have paid 149 € for. All i can say is that i don't seem to be some wicked loner with my opinion though, because i don't see the broad usage in the typical Sylenth dominated genres, or the mass of EDM sound sets for Hive. Or, let's rather say, at least i assume something based on that.