Now Hive is here, is it RIP Sylenth?

[Dasheesh]

Sorry Urs, It struck me that maybe what would do the trick is a more configurable GUI. Like, let the users be able to set it up the way they like it. I am really jealous of the color changing abilities on DIVA myself. That would be killer on Hive. Just a thought.

[Urs]

I have always found u-he stuff very unintuitive to use.

You got a point there, and it's related to what I said earlier.

I believe there is an unimaginable number of excellent presets for Sylenth/Spire/whatever that have never been designed because of its tabbed interface. Sure, it's intuitive and quick, but making sounds where all oscillators and filters have to be adjusted to each other is a pita. So it may not happen as easily as it could, maybe not at all. The tabbing makes it intuitive and quick to master, but with proficiency one hits that wall.

When people praise the workflow in our synths it's often because we manage to avoid those walls. If "intuitive" has to be sacrificed for a slightly steeper learning curve, then so be it - good sound design doesn't come from learning a synth over night.

[mcnoone]

People, you know that you sounds like those teen Android vs. iOS or windows vs. OSX (macOS) etc. wars.
Go for a hug.....everything will be fine
Music is a language and is spoken in many different ways. Accept that or going to be a grumpy old guy.

No hugs are better than hugs.
Language is better than music.
Arguing is better than not arguing.
os x is better than windows, and ios is better than android.
Don't stop now!

[chk071]

I have always found u-he stuff very unintuitive to use.

You got a point there, and it's related to what I said earlier.

I believe there is an unimaginable number of excellent presets for Sylenth/Spire/whatever that have never been designed because of its tabbed interface. Sure, it's intuitive and quick, but making sounds where all oscillators and filters have to be adjusted to each other is a pita. So it may not happen as easily as it could, maybe not at all. The tabbing makes it intuitive and quick to master, but with proficiency one hits that wall.

When people praise the workflow in our synths it's often because we manage to avoid those walls. If "intuitive" has to be sacrificed for a slightly steeper learning curve, then so be it - good sound design doesn't come from learning a synth over night.

A copy paste function for oscillators and filters like in Sylenth, and Spire already helps a lot with that (can't remember now if Hive had that too). Anyway, i'm not sure in general if that is really such a steep obstacle when programming sounds, i mean, if you take a look at Z3TA's factory library, then there are a lot of complex sounds, which probably took hours to program, due to Z3TA's a bit cumbersome programming. If there is a will, there is a way i guess. Spire for example is pretty straight forward to program, even though it has tabs everywhere. It doesn't invite you so much to experiment as other synths might though. It's rather a case of "know what you're doing, and what you're after". Also something i noticed about other synths though. What i certianly like about u-he's synths, and also about Waldorf's synths for example, is that they give you shortcuts in the form or allowing immediately to set modulations in the respective sections, like filter modulation, pitch modulation on the oscillators, and so on. That saves a lot of mouse movement, and work.

[recursive one]

IMO, u-he should start Hive 2, and take the Virus as a reference (not another soft synth!).

Well that would be something interesting. U-he has proven now a couple of times that they know how to do the analog emulation thingie. How about emulating the VA thingie, and make a lot of ex-Virus owners happy? Seriously, i think this is an interesting idea, and, with Howard Scarr, there's also someone in reach with plenty of experience with programming the Virus. And it would also fit to the Hive doctrine of CPU efficiency, when no analog circuitry has to be modelled, so it would be an idea for a "Hive 2". I have a feeling that the general consensus will be though that a lot of soft synths have surprassed the Virus anyway, and there would be no point for an emulation. Well, maybe, but, AFAIC, the Virus is still something people look at when considering a versatile VA hardware synth.

Howard already converted a bank full of virus sounds for Zebra.... years ago.

I see, didn't know about that. Would be interesting to know how the echo on that was from people who actually own a Virus.

Where do I get that Zebra bank and what Virus bank was used as the prototype?

[Urs]

Howard already converted a bank full of virus sounds for Zebra.... years ago.

I see, didn't know about that. Would be interesting to know how the echo on that was from people who actually own a Virus.

IIRC during The Dark Knight sound design Howard reprogrammed some patches from "Batman Begins" to Zebra which were originally made with a Virus. I think some of those made it into TDZ.

Someone else recreated the original Virus factory bank in Zebra. That was like ten years ago, not sure how close this was and what people thought.

[4damind]

I don't understand why Sylenth1 should be the main reference?! Why not a Virus?

I don't think that the Virus is today still the reference. If you try to raise the bar, you must make something new and refine old ideas to bring it to a new level.
We search always for new and fresh sounds, something not heard before. The same time it should be usable without a degree in computer science Sylenth filled the gap the time it was released.
Today I don't think that "yet another Sylenth/Virus" clone will have the same success. I'm relatively sure that people will compare it 1:1 to the original... and because it's not the original they don't like it

[Urs]

Where do I get that Zebra bank and what Virus bank was used as the prototype?

Virus A, https://www.u-he.com/PatchLib/zebra.html pretty far down

[recursive one]

I don't think that the Virus is today still the reference.

I can only say that I bought the Virus when I already had some experience with Spire, Sylenth, Dune2, Massive etc. (including comleted and released tracks, made with these synths, my own soundsets etc), yet Virus is about 90% sounds in my tracks now.

[recursive one]

Where do I get that Zebra bank and what Virus bank was used as the prototype?

Virus A, https://www.u-he.com/PatchLib/zebra.html pretty far down

Thanks a ton, when I have time I will try to make some comparisons (I guess, the A factory banks should be available for TI somewhere).

I see someone has also recreated the Overture pad, one of my favourite Virus pads, in Zebra. Will post the comparisons asap

[aumordia]

I think what you describe is pretty much the stuff we've identified ourselves. For some people ergonomics go up if they're presented with less control, while parts of the complexity are hidden away. Thing is, Hive already has fewer parameters than Sylenth - they're just presented pretty much all at once.

Bjarne Stroustrup once told me over email something to the effect of "complexity doesn't disappear, it only moves." He was talking about C++ vs. other programming languages, but I've found the principle to have very broad applicability (think about the difference between a manual and an automatic transmission) -- it's certainly relevant to seemingly all things regarding synthesis and audio production. But I digress...

In my actual profession, being an industrial designer, I've always followed the thesis that humans need to be able to master something they use often.

I actually agree fully with this, but perhaps where we differ is that I like to think of the thing I use often as just my raw knowledge of synthesis. I think a big part of why Sylenth1 is gratifying to users like me is because it doesn't ask for much more of me than understanding the fundamentals of subtractive synthesis. Therefore...

For humans to feel good (self esteem, what have you) they need challenge and they need to be able to overcome hurdles (see Flow principle). They need things at which they can become good at, which results in the opposite of routine, say, exercise. When David Helfgott plays Rachmaninov it's the result of challenge and exercise, not routine.

...the thing I'm rewarded for getting good at is just general synth knowledge. To be clear, I fully agree with the basic principle you're explicating. However, the less I have to learn a tool, the better; I'm not stating that as a universal principle, just as the preference for the slice of the market I represent. I'm not a pro, I'm unlikely to ever be one, and between work, family, church, date night, etc., I have to be very discerning about how I invest my time in my music hobby, of which synthesis is just one relatively small component (I spend much more time on composition and practicing my instruments). I also have to consider how much of my scarce mental real estate to allocate to synth knowledge (my synaptic market is unlikely to improve, I'm in my 30's now).

So I want to be able to focus on the general, enduring principles, and not have to worry about technical minutae. Obviously this ideal can only ever be asymptotically approached, but still, the closer the better.

Now, I could just give up and surf presets, and for a lot of people that's enough -- and these people tend to buy Omnisphere, which I can't bring myself to pull the trigger on. Because I just don't find preset surfing to be rewarding. I want to "know synthesis," and use "my own sounds," and I don't want to invest a ton of time and energy into it. And back when the standard synth looked like a Juno 60, expectations were such that this goal was easily met. Sure, my Juno 60 patches would probably sound just about the same as anybody else's, but hey, they're my generic patches, which I used to make my unremarkable music.

The question is, can modern synths give me the same feeling of gratification for little more than knowledge of general principles, yet expand my sonic palette simultaneously? The answer is obviously yes, but the details are what drives the decision making, which leads me to...

So however this worked for Zebra, Diva and the modulars might in part have worked because their concept is very original. People can't download a Diva competitor that is ergonomically designed like a ticket vending machine. However people can download a dozen Hive competitors that are, in that they typically tab stuff away.

...bingo. I don't know that I tried out a literal dozen synths -- maybe half that -- but I really did do a fair amount of investigation, and in the end, I was considering Hive or Sylenth1. (Which means that Hive is actually extraordinarily good, in case that isn't already obvious.) Now, if you keep my elaborated criteria in mind, my choice of Sylenth1 isn't surprising, right? Sylenth1 doesn't ask me to learn Sylenth1, so much as it asks me to learn synthesis. Hive demanded a little more Hive-specific knowledge from me.

Now, note that we're talking a difference of degree here, and a relatively small one -- I'll go back to the 3 engine modes in Hive, it's a good example. It's not like it's a huge burden to learn that, but sitting here with $150 in my pocket, why learn it if I don't have to? Also note that the contest isn't "whoever requires the absolute least of me wins," if that was the case I would have just bought Tal-U-No-LX. It's about hitting a sweet spot -- how much can you reward me for general synth knowledge? That's what I think Sylenth1 is really good at.

The other key factor in this equation is removing the "sharp edges." Not to be too tongue-in-cheek, but it's something like "find all the ways to make your synth sound bad, then get rid of them." This necessarily limits the possible sounds, of course, but it's my preferred trade off. I'd rather have a synth that gets me 80% of the sound with only 20% of the rabbit holes, so to speak.

So maybe, instead of a list of things we should drop, I'd love to invite you to send us your thoughts on our redesign, once we have something to show. We'll also tackle other issues, but the things you mention sound exactly like the things we want to look into anyway.

I'm keen to see what you come up with! That said, I think there are some things you could do to make Hive not just the winner between prospective buyers evaluating it vs. Sylenth1, but convince present Sylenth1 owners to add Hive to their arsenal. Here's the basic idea: we take it for granted that stacked oscillators and supersaws are easy to do, but look at the way it's implemented in e.g. Sytrus -- by comparison, the way Sylenth1 keeps it simple is ingenious. Now, what if there was a way to seamlessly capitalize on a user's knowledge of other synthesis methods? Take FM for instance. With FM in particular, it's incredibly easy to make sounds that could kill a man -- but what if there was a way to incorporate FM without the sharp edges?

Imagine presenting the option of FM in such a way that a) if you understand FM, you can rapidly incorporate the essential FM timbres into your patches, b) if you don't know what it is, it won't get in your way, c) if you don't know what it is but you mess with it anyway, it will still sound good, and d) the mechanism in which it is presented is so intuitive that you can forget about it everytime you walk away and relearn it on the spot. This is another one of those "asymptotic ideals," to be sure, but it's also the kind of challenge that I think U-he is uniquely positioned to solve.

In my estimation, this is basically what Omnisphere has done, if you ignore the 10k presets. I keep thinking about buying it just for that reason, although I'm hesitant to shell out that much for thousands of presets and gigs of samples that I'm just never going to use. But every feature that it presents, it presents it as an automatic transmission, not a manual. That's really appealing.

There are some synths that seem like they're trying to do this. Predator and Dune 2 come to mind, but they both seem to require too much Predator/Dune trivia knowledge to be worth it. (I suppose I should add Spire to this list, although I honestly don't understand what all the hubub is about there.) At any rate, if Zebra is for the Hans Zimmers / Howard Scarrs of the world, I think Hive could be turned into something for those of us who admire them, but don't have the time or talent to master their tools -- at which point, no one will care if Hive is a Sylenth1 killer or not, because it will be its own uniquely great thing.

And to be clear, it's already great as is. And it sounds phenomenal! People who say it sounds too "metallic" or whatever, well...



BTW, if it seems like I have far too much to say about this for any normal man, it's because this sort of thing is literally my job. I spend all day figuring out how to take an absurdly complex software package and tailor it so that prospective clients see it, comprehend it, want it, and ultimately, purchase it. I'm not sure how much my experience helping drug companies discover cures 1% faster is transferable to this domain, but I'm not coming at completely out of the blue, FWIW.

[Urs]

A copy paste function for oscillators and filters like in Sylenth, and Spire already helps a lot with that (can't remember now if Hive had that too).

Yep, Hive has that too. There are even presets for each module and you can create your own. And you can copy paste from one instance to another. There's even presets for the whole effects chain.

Most importantly, if both "Parts" have a similar sound and you want to adjust detune and or filter and or waveforms whatsoever for both, you can link them and change both at once while preserving the relative differences between each side. When you do so you immediately see the change. You don't need to change one, then adjust the other, then go back and forth again.

But yes, in order to achieve this it had to look more complicated.

[Cyoon]

there are a few different color schemes available by now.

I use the illusions skin. It seems to work the best for me. Are there others now?

great

a few more extreme ones can be found here: https://www.u-he.com/PatchLib/skins.html

[Dasheesh]

there are a few different color schemes available by now.

I use the illusions skin. It seems to work the best for me. Are there others now?

great

a few more extreme ones can be found here: https://www.u-he.com/PatchLib/skins.html

Whoa, there ARE new colors. last time I was over there it was bare on the skin side of things. Thanks.

[Cyoon]

there are a few different color schemes available by now.

I use the illusions skin. It seems to work the best for me. Are there others now?

great

a few more extreme ones can be found here: https://www.u-he.com/PatchLib/skins.html

Whoa, there ARE new colors. last time I was over there it was bare on the skin side of things. Thanks.

it's also not too difficult to do your own, if you know some photoshop.