Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[AnX]

as I described above, just press a button to turn the arps of a SQ preset off, and you have your simple sound. You can't really complain, that you are getting more: instead of 1 simple bassline sound you get with an SQ the fitting drums, the fitting fx automations, a cool rhythmic pattern for the bassline etc... which all can be turned off very easily, to get the simple bassline sound again. See the rest as a bonus, which can come handy.

but like I said, SQ presets are only a small part of the factory library. Most sounds are playable, without all this. I showed some of them in the videos because they are more impressive to show. But the next video will show pads, leads, basses etc.

Yes, i understand all that. All it means is, im paying over the odds for stuff i wont be using. I already have great synth that do all those parts anyway, and i much prefer to use a single instrument for each part. Its much easier to control.

I'll try the demo if there is one, of course. Im always interested in new stuff and wont say a def no until ive tried it, but at the moment a purchase isnt looking likely.

[ATS]

as I described above, just press a button to turn the arps of a SQ preset off, and you have your simple sound. You can't really complain, that you are getting more: instead of 1 simple bassline sound you get with an SQ the fitting drums, the fitting fx automations, a cool rhythmic pattern for the bassline etc... which all can be turned off very easily, to get the simple bassline sound again. See the rest as a bonus, which can come handy.

but like I said, SQ presets are only a small part of the factory library. Most sounds are playable, without all this. I showed some of them in the videos because they are more impressive to show. But the next video will show pads, leads, basses etc.

Yes, i understand all that. All it means is, im paying over the odds for stuff i wont be using. I already have great synth that do all those parts anyway, and i much prefer to use a single instrument for each part. Its much easier to control.

I'll try the demo if there is one, of course. Im always interested in new stuff and wont say a def no until ive tried it, but at the moment a purchase isnt looking likely.

I'll alert the media

[walker1]

When can I buy it?

I have my own dongle it is possible to download the license and transfer it to the dongle?

What will the price be?

[AnX]

as I described above, just press a button to turn the arps of a SQ preset off, and you have your simple sound. You can't really complain, that you are getting more: instead of 1 simple bassline sound you get with an SQ the fitting drums, the fitting fx automations, a cool rhythmic pattern for the bassline etc... which all can be turned off very easily, to get the simple bassline sound again. See the rest as a bonus, which can come handy.

but like I said, SQ presets are only a small part of the factory library. Most sounds are playable, without all this. I showed some of them in the videos because they are more impressive to show. But the next video will show pads, leads, basses etc.

Yes, i understand all that. All it means is, im paying over the odds for stuff i wont be using. I already have great synth that do all those parts anyway, and i much prefer to use a single instrument for each part. Its much easier to control.

I'll try the demo if there is one, of course. Im always interested in new stuff and wont say a def no until ive tried it, but at the moment a purchase isnt looking likely.

I'll alert the media

Arthur

[msvs]

Yes, i understand all that. All it means is, im paying over the odds for stuff i wont be using.

no you won't. It would cost the same without those presets

[woodsdenis]

Having the ability to do multiple sequences wether with 1 finger or not is a good thing, can be used for multiple things, dynamic moving textures etc. More vids pls

[AnX]

Yes, i understand all that. All it means is, im paying over the odds for stuff i wont be using.

no you won't. It would cost the same without those presets

Im talking about features not presets

[loachm]

I love one finger songs or instant accompaniment. It shows that developer invested time in to developing his or her product. I don't buy simple sound libraries any more I already have too many sounds. It is what sound can do is what matter. I would pay for the instrument if it well programmed. Not just sounds but programming. Good arpeggiator presets, phrases or other things developer can invent. This is what moves progress forward. 5 years ago simple sounds were satisfying. Now days- sounds must do something, come with own arpeggiators or sequences or pulses. I think the greatest invention in last years was development of pulse engines. Take the normal sound, apply pulse, make it "do things". Different pulses can make the same sound source sound different. Combine it with arpeggiator and you have something interesting to offer.

...I get what you mean and since I think, I might have brought up the pejorative term "one-finger-preset", I'd like to add, that I don't think, there's anything wrong with that, nor that it's lame to use such presets (also just said "geared towards" and Manuel also confirmed my thought in a reply to someone else - you don't have to use it). I also agree, that just simple sounds don't do it anymore - there has to be something more for the developers to show & market as well as for the customers to get something they can work with.

Now speaking more in general (and the following is also geared to Manuel as to developers in general), I think every good (more modern) synth should have an arp, as it adds a lot to your musical expression, as well as things like costumisable LFOs, a comprehensive mod matrix, playable step sequencers and also things like the Performer in Massive (which is a clever simplification of host automation examples put into a synthesizer IMO). I'm not so sure about a drum sequencer in a synth - of course, it will help when playing live, but I think things like Ableton Live or Maschine are well-established solutions for these kinds of things. But again, I don't have to use that. And, of course, I wasn't accurate as I should have indicated how those "one-finger-presets" can show how to use all these modulators for you own patch creation and musical expression - so I agree, the more options the better.

What bothers me, though, is the fact, that we still don't seem to have, let's phrase it "convergent developments" (to explain the question I asked here before). What I mean with that, is that plug-ins had a great influence on music technology in terms of accessability, as in being available for a broader group of customers and providing more control, flexibility and reproducibility in the actual production process as well. And it's only natural that at first we used that new technology with the means of interfacing that we already have - and these are computer keyboard and mouse. A lot of people rightfully argue that these are very bad as music instruments and the renaissance of hardware and analog gear seems to confirm that. Efforts like controllers that access plug-ins on their automation level (and not plain midi) either via host access or putting a wrapper in between like the ones from Novation, Nektar or NI Kontrol/Maschine, Akai Advance etc. also seem to confirm that need for a better accessability as well. But in order to do that the plug-ins need to provide that accessability. And, of course, it gets more complicated the more complex a synth is - and Avenger looks really complex.

I get that certain interfacing operations are handled better with a mouse (the pinnacle of that paradigm is probably Absynth - I guess, there is a reason, there's hardly any knob icon on its GUI). And indeed, with the emergence of plug-ins it was really refreshing that we could work with a mouse on a screen, instead of dealing with a small LCDs and endless menu-diving. But let's not forget, these were fairly simple plug-ins in those days. Nowadays with more complex instruments, and even more, with instruments that provide a lot of creative options, I think, we need a better access, as using these huge sound-design monsters with just a mouse has become a bit like this menu-diving again. I guess, the problem doesn't lie in the sub-structures itself, they exist because of the natural complexity of sound and music. I guess, it's more a problem of the right balance between (physical) accessabilty and visibility. Our possibilities of visual represantation have become virtually endless on the computer screen, but we have limited our physical access drastically. (And, no, I don't think touch-screens are the final solution - if anything, just a part of it, as they can offer a lot of possibilities, but you will fall flat on your arse, if you want to use a touch-screen with sweaty fingers in the heat of a performance).

Why the fairly long essay? I guess, a bit to raise awareness or to articulate precisely what probably many feel. If we're supposed to be able to access the plug-ins via controllers, they must be accessable via the software and that means they have to be structured in a certain manner. As a simple example. Linplug's Spektral is a brilliant synth, but I did not buy it as its effect parameters have all different automation IDs, even though they can only be use in a limited number of effect slots at a time. That makes it practically impossible to map for any of these new controllers that I mentioned - no matter, if you want to create sounds yourself or just want to use presets. Another example would be NI's Rounds - a very clever design - and I guess, it would be possible to control it entirely with an external controller, if they'd provide the access. But for creating your own sounds with a certain level of physicality (for the spontaneity, the happy accidents, the fun), it's practically useless. It's a preset machine that allows you to turn eight macros.

Avenger seems to be a huge synth with a lot of options and like Manuel said, this complexity will be put into tabs (it has to). From the looks of its features, it could become a go-to synth for many years, that's why I hope it is designed and structured accordingly, so that it has the advantage over all its competitors and that as many controls as possible are controllable via some hardware, so that we can use this instrument in a more musical way - i.e., physically - as you can't seperate musicality and physicality.

Thanks!

[frizzbee]

i think they're 3 years too late. it may have been an innovation back then when serum, spire or nave were released. but know all their features are just copycats. the interface isn't inviting nor ergonomic (i also liked the old style more). and they're in competition to their own products like phalanx, nexus and rapid (i know they're not exactly the developers of rapid but their ex-developer is, so it is pretty "inside the family"). if one has nexus (probably with dozens of expansions) does he need avenger (with dozens of expansions too)? i don't think so. so the market gets smaller and smaller.
btw i don't know how i should feel about the endless attempts to make an expansion-cash-cow-monster like nexus. it didn't work with metrum nor phalanx. now there are no updates and no expansions anymore.

i'm also pretty sure they push the sq-capability because a single layer lead wouldn't be distinguishable from any other synth and therefore there would be no reason to buy avenger. right know other devs working on innovative plugins with different synthesis, filters and fx to set new trends and create new sounds. but to me it looks like vengeance is trying to ride the safe train again and cash up.

and at least i feel a bit ashamed about the arts acoustic fx. how less confident must the developer be with his own products if he buys 3rd party plugins like a phaser or flanger. they already have these plugins. they could put some effort in and update them. this would be a great thing for their fx bundle customers, too. or is this just another marketing move? the customers would see arts acoustic and may buy it (after the recent debates in several forums about arts acoustic i don't think so )?

i won't say a word about copy protection because they're not sure about it yet.
of course i'll try the demo. but from what i heard in the youtube videos it doesn't sound different or special.

i could have wrote nearly the same thing about rapid too

[recursive one]

if one has nexus (probably with dozens of expansions) does he need avenger (with dozens of expansions too)?

Except that one is a rompler limited in every possible area and another one should be a full-blown synth.

Re: Innovation - to each their own, but considering that 10 years old Virus TI still sounds better than most VSTis covering similar grounds, for me a plugin which could match it in sound quality and has a comparable feature set would be the most welcomed innovation.

Avenger:



Virus (I'm taking these sounds as a reference cause they also come from Vengeance, not that they are what I'd be using in my music)

https://soundcloud.com/vengeancesound/w ... -sound-com

https://soundcloud.com/vengeancesound/w ... ound-de-23

Well, high hopes so far

[loachm]

how less confident must the developer be with his own products if he buys 3rd party plugins like a phaser or flanger. they already have these plugins.

...well, I think it was said that these would be specifically modelled vintage phasers & flangers, so there you have it. Apart from that, I guess, it's pretty standard that developers licence code to one another. For instance, you might have a look at the credits of Serum and see who did the filters and the waveform analysis...

[Astralv]

The Phalanx has great set of features. I am always amazed how detail oriented it is. Also I don't have time to learn all the details and how to use all the features. I personally believe that sound design is for sound designers and plugin developers, and musicians should focus on making music. My art comes when I mix together different sounds from different synths. I should not be expected to know how to program every synth I am using. Therefor- I rely on presets and talented folks who find joy in making presets. I use my talent for music and I already have a lot to deal with- DAW issues, mixing effects, mastering, loudness wars, compressors, limiters, vocal sync, melodyne, pitch correction- sorry- no time to make sounds with synth. So all the fancy features only matter for the sound designers. The synth should have deep layers of such features for developers to be able to program beautiful presets. The synth easily reaches it's own limit if it has limited features. But I prefer- somebody else do the programing of the synth for me. And I am willing to pay for it. I am willing to pay for arpeggiator presets. I like it how Tone2 has arpeggiator bank presets and different arpeggio patterns can be applied to the same sound making it sound totally different every time. If they were offering arpegiator programs for sale to load in to Nemesis, I would definitely buy it. Think about money making opportunity: if your synth is able to import MIDI patterns, you can hire good piano player and create all kind of patterns for sale that would include amazing melodies, powerful rhythm sections and so on- if it can be loaded in to synth, it can give new life to old boring sounds. Maschine doing it very successfully with their expansion libraries. Now they ready to release hardware that would allow easy pattern selection. They can just go on and sale patterns with midi notes. Drummers doing it for centuries- we could always buy MIDI drum loops. Yeah, I guess- there are midi libraries for EDM on the net but they are hard to use and store. For me- time is the most valuable possession. Making best out of my time and getting more done is the goal. Nexus is nice rompler but it does not have MIDI learn. To me- it is a deal breaker. Plus the price of expansions is not reasonable. 5 years ago it made sense. Now days- the market is oversaturated- paying 60$ for expansion is too much. But I have several expansions- once that I bought at the Christmas sale with discount.

[walker1]

In my ears it sounds very much like the Nexus hope not!!!
Hope it sounds one step better with a more modern character of the sound

[balasco]

Painful viewing. Give the yt comments a miss too.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Polyphonic aftertouch?