WHOA! Your host CAN NOT do this...

[chagzuki]

yes indeed. The premise of this thread is a load of nonsense.

[dystonia_ek]

The fundamental attitude to a synth then was ‘what can I make THIS do, what can I discover?’ The dominance of the Rompler in the nineties was dire, but it’s left this legacy that a synth is something that delivers an a priori expectation, not something you explore, as a new space. If it’s true that there’s nothing new in music anymore it’s because musicians have stopped looking for it. Style is a mechanism, genre a prison for the mind, and message is a fashion selection like you might choose exotic foods at a hypermall, and present a kind of dish that adheres to the aesthetic of your chosen food fad.

Hence the frantic appetite for a machine that will instantaneously provide sound x.

You've hit the nail squarely on the head here. And because of increasing complexity of computer-based music tools, less people are interested in tinkering - as the use-presets vs make-your-own debates on this board seem to have illustrated.

I find it a little ironic that, with the potential sonic palette increasing exponentially every few months, fewer and fewer people actually take advantage in any meaningful way. But, as HanafiH pointed out, the obsession with style and the lust for instant gratification is probably the culprit - as it always has been.

I have to say that, concerning Robert's original point about 'uninspiring vst's', the sheer number of instruments available is overwhelming, and many do basically variations on the same thing. Mind you the same thing happened to a degree with hardware synths.
How many bands in the 70's bought huge Moog modulars and then used them just to do simple sawtooth leads?

(I also find the vogue for hardware emulation is a little discouraging. The strength and attraction of the computer as a sonic tool is the things you can do that you can't do with hardware (esp. spectral and granular processing). Or, at least, no hardware I've personally had access to. Though I guess it could be argued that software costs a lot less...)

But I have to disagree with the performance issue to a degree - there are certain things that just don't translate to performance very well. When I began I was making more or less 'pure' tape music, just editing, splicing, transposing... and the few times I actually 'performed' that type of thing it was undoubtedly as boring for the audience as it was for me!

[k-bird]

These are no longer tools, they are status items. They are things to help make you feel superior, godlike. They are things to make you forget you're human, imperfect and make mistakes.

The trick is to laugh loudly at people who have that fetishising attitude towards their kit and call them names if they take themselves seriously. That tool-as-status-symbol attitude is crap: i had one friend who got a job earlier than i did and bought himself a Novation BassStation or something, but never used the thing and whenever he'd call and chew my ear off i'd always ask him about it to have him tell me he's not touched his synths to get him back for being such a dull ear-chewing wanker.

Electronic music by and large is in an aggressive creative lull since it's been taken over by trendies and the tragically hip and hairdressers and advertisers and wallets and perfunctory trends. There's very little of any interest out there at the moment for me, but then again i first tuned in during the early 1990s when everything was going completely nuts. With any luck, in a few years enough people will start scoffing the correct sorts of drugs again to create an atmosphere that allows good, interesting music to flourish once more.

With any luck the UN will completely outlaw both trance and d&b at the same time.

[k-bird]

We f**king laugh at it all. Nothing is amazing, nothing is thrilling, nothing is sacred, nothing is worth being inspired about.

If there's one thing i despise about this time in history, it's this hopelessly submissive yet aggressively cynical malaise. Here's to the third wave.

[Rellik]

I agree! Explore your tools and all that.

But make what you like. Follow your tastes (or at least attempt to do so). If that leads you somewhere new and untouched, then that's fine. If it doesn't, continue to do what you do. There's no reason to despise something just because it's so good that too many people like it.

[Robert Randolph]

Love all the replies even fi I dont agree.

Sorry meffy, I was posting that post (and editing a few times, because it was very harsh the first few times) while you wrote your post. You did miss the point a bit, but that doesnt invalidate your opinion at all. This is a fairly free forum, not rules saying everything must be totally on topic

[proart]

WOW. What a bunch of hoopalah we have here.
Frankly, when a fan is paying 10 to 20 of their hard earned bucks for my cd I don't feel the least bit guilty about having everything snapped to the grid, and using pristine samples to add and padd the tunes, or using pitch corrective software or any of the latest technology to give them what they deserve...a GREAT LISTENING EXPERIENCE.
And why would someone bash FL studio users? Haven't you ever heard of a producer. Yes it is true, you don't even have to be a seasoned musician to write, arrange and compose a great work of art. And one thing is definitly for certain without a doubt...that not just 'anyone' can do it!! But Mozart knew that long before I did.(he was WAY ahead of the Jones')
As for live preformance...
Am I the only one who brings the computer right on stage with me. Not only does it run samplers and the light show but it handles patch changes for the whole bands outboard gear, as well as the automated mix. Why? Cause I watched a disgruntled stage tech push the SUCK button on Quiet Riot, leaving the fans feeling robbed out their hard earned ticket money. They deserved more.
As far as I'm concerned, people can philosophise all they want about "music being theier passion", and "I'm a musician first, and a computer musician second..." (maybe I should say I'm a musician first and a guitar player musician second...) Music has personality, image, emotion, and a whole buch of other stuff that just can't be summerised. If people like it, they'll want more. And if they like the preformance they might even throw bras on stage.(Anyone feeling the need to attack that as "feeding the ego" should hold the comments untill AFTER you've signed a few breasts)
I like this quote from an earlier post...

Perhaps there is something to people learning the english language is well.

Is well or isn't. I don't know cause me English Language ain't the best, either.
Peace Out

[peppy197]

There is virtually nothing left to make a synthesized version of. There is a synth version of everything.
....

This is where I see a turning point in this technological movement we are financing.

Cubase and such have become unique and specialized file management systems, how much more manipulations can you squeeze in?

I can see that now, composition skills will become more and more evidant and important as we all acquire the same level of audio fidelity and file management skill.

What will shine, hopefully, will be the distinction between looping (already easily picked out) and actual composing, and ultimitely pseudo-live improvisations...

Having been diddlying and doin what technology permits me since 1959 when I first got a hard on while the pretty nun was shaping my right hands palm around an imaginary apple ... (what am I saying //// God forgive me) ... anyway, as I was saying, and having later in life to learn stepwise and with labour how to use the Fourier Transform method to get fundamental frequencies using what is called a slide rule (the one computer in town was busy)..... etc etc etc...

I have a learned appreciation for technological wizardery, I like it. I have a pilot's license and love the feel of the airplane because of its advanced nature. Now dont expect me to try flying without the airplane just because I am using technology and not doing the flying with my own bare arms or to use a kite... , I could however go for a long walk without the aid of techs..... I have a PhD in Science because Im curious about nature not that I want to be higher than you, nor am I doing the necessary to nuture a career in it. I cannot figure out the subtle incorporations involved with one hydrogen atom at a time in the maintainance of the life cycle just by sitting down with a pencil and paper and doing it all by hand just to say I did it MY WAY. So I will use the latest available technology to acjive my goals. Now these goals do not get lower they get higher... And I thrive to achieve, eventually I hope, a level of expertise in music creation that is both beautiful and inspiring. It would be nice if it could finance itself, ha ha ha.

My next venture in this hobby is to stay leaning on software but with a new effort and thrust (language again ?) into the possibilities of true improv with a pseudo-piano hooked up to and capable of controlling the eloquent software I am now using.

I love this music tech stuf...
I breath it smell it eat it sleep with it


allen

[Robert Randolph]

hrm. I must learn to spell check.

[simondsouza]

Well I'd just like to sy that Bach used manuscript, well tempered claviers and other musicians. He also studied a lot.

John coltrane used manuscript, saxophone, and other musicians. he also studied a lot

John lennon used pieces of paper, guitar and voice and other musicians. he also studied a lot.

My point being that I have to get my ideas down (manuscript or on the pc), I need a tool to make music with (in my case computers and saxophones, and it's vital that I collaborate/communicate with other musicians to keep fresh. I also need to study a lot (that includes knowing how my instrument works - saxophone, FL Studio, Tracktion, my computer etc).

The only difference is that Bach, Coltrane and Lennon had something that can only be called genius. I unfortunately have to make do with what I know.

This isn't OT - I think that it's easy to get all disillusioned about how everything 'sounds the same now' or 'it was better before such and such' but the truth is that a sax player will spend years getting the right horn/mouthpiece/reed set up before they're happy - I've been playing 25 years and I still mess around with different reeds from time to time, so it's inevitable that if you play the computer you're gonna mess around with different software/system configs etc.

If you find you're doing too much geeking then stop doing it!

If you find you're out of inspiration stop doing it for a while, come back when you are ready.

Don't blame the tools, no one's forcing you to use them.

Don't blame other peoples music either, no one is forcing you to listen to it.

[peppy197]

Rellik, I am like you...I take forever to finish songs...

You 2?

A one song project folder in my older VST32 work would have the following files:

1.sng
2.sng
3.sng
4,sng
5.sng
6.sng
7.sng
8.sng
9.sng

At which point if I make an 11.sng the sequence gets buggered up because 11 follows 1 in Windows' folders, so I delete 1 to 8 and rename the 9 to a 1 and start over again.
(Method has copywrigth pending.)


This way I never know how many versions I embarassingly took to write the 55 second abandonned work of art(?)..

Now I use unlimited undo...

Sorry fo straying from the true path and destiny of this thread but I do not control the universe...


allen

[RWA]

double post.........
But that was my mistake..... don't blame the gear

[Meffy]

Love all the replies even fi I dont agree.

The debate's the thing! When it comes to music, art, fishing, interpersonal relationships, or any of a number of other important topics, there just ain't nevah gonna be One Truth. :-) You've stimulated lots of discussion -- definitely useful to hear opposing opinions and work things out.

Got rid of my weekend preaching impulse too.

Here's a funny thing; it surprised me recently. My wanting new plug-ins is far less intense than it used to be. I started out with pretty much nothing, chose the kinds of sounds most important to me, and have slowly been buying when good deals turned up at the same time the bank wasn't laying siege to the homestead.

Now that the instruments I think are most important are all in place, my wish list hasn't vanished. But the urgency is gone -- the gearmania, the drive to collect for the sake of collecting, the squirrel-in-autumn "harvest 'em now!" impulse has receded to a more or less sensible level. The goodies I haven't yet got... well, I can wait, or do without. It's no big deal.

All those goodies and what can I show for it? A virtual shoebox full of notably crummy compositions. :-D But each sounds a little less objectionable than the last. And my friends have discovered six new ways to improvise ear-plugs from household objects; that's got to be worth something.

Meffy

[RWA]

How long will it take before the inhabitants of KVR start laughing at people who own real guitar amps? HAHAH, I have guitar rig man. Guitar amps are out-dated. Or the current trend of hardware synthesizers? Some people are afraid to even say they own them anymore! Very soon there will be nothing left to emulate, what will you do then?

Sorry for putting it this way... but I think some people need to get their head out of their ass. If you're worried about what people at KVR will think about your gear.... then you have a serious problem.
Don't get me wrong, I love KVR for what it is, but this place isn't the center of the (music) universe you know. The rising power of PC tools may be intimidating some times..... but so were the first electric guitars.

I see your overall point but you also know where the problem is yourself. Stop fooling around with those plugins and start creating some nice music. Although fooling around with gear is a hobby too you know....
Inspiration is a weird thing and lack of it can never be blamed on your gear. Maybe you simply ran out of it or need to step back from it for a while.

If you hang around on KVR every freakin' day you might start to believe that having the latest plugin is what it's all about. Again, snap out of it and visit a local pub or any venue and go see a live band. There are millions of them out there you know.


And people who never finish a project are lazy bastards!
But seriously.... creating a piece of decent music.... playing all the instruments and selecting the right sounds..... mix it... master it... it's a lot of work you know. To create and finish something requires skills and hard work.
Life's a bitch isn't it?!

[skOre]

...Not reading all of this (have to get sleeping ), but thanks for the words.

I'm happy that one of the greatest things on earth is for me to just start up FL and have fun composing. Hope I won't lose this...