If music is subjective then how could it be universal too? Why are instrumentals less popular than songs. Are lyrics more powerful than music?
If people can be racist then can people also be "musicist", if you know what I mean?
Last night I made a comment at another thread that made me realize again that my CD collection is of bands mostly from the UK (and its colonies) and America (a former colony). I then noticed for the first time that I don't have any songs in my CD collection that are from Russia and China and probably a lot of other "non-English" countries as well. The internet makes access to even those countries's music not as hard as before? YouTube must be full of "foreign" music. And yet I don't explore other music made by non-English countries. Is this true of a lot of other consumer of "English music" as well?
If I start listening to Russian and Chinese music would I start liking them? Would I start liking the Russian music scale, the Chinese scale? Or is it too late? I don't seem to have the drive to do it.
And then I thought "If the lyrics to all these English bands that I like were not in English would they be in my CD collection?"
Probably not all of them. But since my ears are so used to the "English music scale", I guess that would mostly be the Ionian scale, I might still like the music. Do Japanese (or other non-English) people relate to the translated lyrics of the song "Money" by Pink Floyd even if they may not like Pink Floyd's music? I read somewhere that The Dark Side Of The Moon album or CD is the most globally successful music by any band ever. Does this success include countries like Japan, Russia, etc? Hey, wasn't Cheap Trick big in Japan? What the heck is going on? Seems really complicated.
Are the Beatles only big in countries that understand the English language? The Beatles have a version of "I Wanna Hold your Hand" sung in German by The Beatles themselves. Which version was bigger in Germany? The German version or the English version? Oh wait, the Germans understand English pretty well since I read somewhere that the English language is quite Germanic. So, Germany probably is not a good example to ask that question. Is the Chinese language the most unlike the English language? How big are The Beatles in China?
If music is universal then why do a lot of countries (still?) prefer music that are using those countries's musical scales? Is music preference really just cultural brainwashing and not universal at all?
If my observations and ponderings are way off track, please lessen my naivete and educate me (and maybe other people as well), if you want.
Is Music Really Universal?
-
- KVRAF
- 7001 posts since 20 Mar, 2012 from Babbleon
ah böwakawa poussé poussé
-
- KVRAF
- 1794 posts since 9 Apr, 2011
I think you're right. Music is largely cultural, and some sociologists would argue that it's primarily cultural. The idea of music as being totally universal is off track.
Some parts of music, like the affinity for intervals that correspond to harmonic ratios, are universal because they're physics. But this is akin to saying because the wavelengths of light that comprise colors are universal, all visual art is universal, which is clearly not it.
Some parts of music, like the affinity for intervals that correspond to harmonic ratios, are universal because they're physics. But this is akin to saying because the wavelengths of light that comprise colors are universal, all visual art is universal, which is clearly not it.
"musician."
http://soundcloud.com/nine-of-kings
http://soundcloud.com/nine-of-kings
-
- KVRAF
- 10161 posts since 16 Dec, 2002
I just read your post in the voice of Eric Cartman, hilarious 
-
- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
The way in which scales deviate from the harmonic series is cultural.
Singing carries meaning, which is lost if you don't speak the language. I enjoy singing more I'd I can understand what the words mean. Except in contemporary pop music, in which case I like it less.
I do make a point of exploring the music of other cultures. I probably enjoy the exotic qualities of it in a way that locals would not, so there is definitely a novelty factor which looms over the appreciation of the subtleties of individual songs.
Singing carries meaning, which is lost if you don't speak the language. I enjoy singing more I'd I can understand what the words mean. Except in contemporary pop music, in which case I like it less.
I do make a point of exploring the music of other cultures. I probably enjoy the exotic qualities of it in a way that locals would not, so there is definitely a novelty factor which looms over the appreciation of the subtleties of individual songs.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
-
- KVRAF
- 5664 posts since 7 Feb, 2013
I don't know much about Chinese music, but Russian music (I mean pop and rock, not classical or traditional) is mostly very "westernised", nothing specifically Russian in it except for the language.
Well, if you are curious, here several examples of Russian ethno-pop with more or less genuine traditional Russian motives
https://soundcloud.com/irinamikhailova/2-winter-light
For more straightforward Russian pop which managed to gain some recognition abroad you may try t.A.T.u., they have some tracks where they sing in English iirc.
Well, if you are curious, here several examples of Russian ethno-pop with more or less genuine traditional Russian motives
https://soundcloud.com/irinamikhailova/2-winter-light
For more straightforward Russian pop which managed to gain some recognition abroad you may try t.A.T.u., they have some tracks where they sing in English iirc.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try
-
- KVRist
- 131 posts since 27 Jul, 2006
Music is Universal!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27273935
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26795072
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22010229
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19559781
Just touching the surface here, but there are a lot of research going on around the world on the biological
effects of music.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27273935
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26795072
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22010229
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19559781
Just touching the surface here, but there are a lot of research going on around the world on the biological
effects of music.
-
- Banned
- 703 posts since 20 Oct, 2012
If music is subjective then how could it be universal too?
Music is universal, not subjective. "Subjective" is the way you emotionally experience music, not music.
Why are instrumentals less popular than songs.
Not true. Instrumentals are more popular in this part of the world.
Are lyrics more powerful than music?
No.
My CD collection is of bands mostly from the UK (and its colonies) and America (a former colony). I then noticed for the first time that I don't have any songs in my CD collection that are from Russia and China and probably a lot of other "non-English" countries as well.
It is just the consequence of so called "American Imperialism", nothing else. 99% of American music is as shitty as the music of any other country, yet you can find it everywhere. it's just a question of profit, how US export and impose their products (music, movies etc.) all over the world thanks to the fact they won WW2. As a consequence, in U.S. it is the exact opposite: probably less than 0,1% is non-American pop/rock/wathever music, and probably only because of latinos and other ethnic minorities market. They call it "import music" or smth. I guess most of Americans totally ignore outside U.S. there are thousands of non-american artists who have sold millions records, singing in Italian, Spanish, French, Japanese, Korean, German, Arabic, Russian etc.
If I start listening to Russian and Chinese music would I start liking them? Would I start liking the Russian music scale, the Chinese scale? Or is it too late? I don't seem to have the drive to do it.
If you only think we (people of post war American colonies) have to listen to all that shitty American pop music on the radio, on tv, airports, shops, restaurants, waiting rooms, everywhere, all the time, h24, even if we hate it...
Or you think it's so popular because we like it?...
And then I thought "If the lyrics to all these English bands that I like were not in English would they be in my CD collection?"
Yes and No. If you are American, I guess probably no. That is because in not-AmEng speaking countries lyrics are not so important, since we focus more on music (and that is why we are more prepared to listen to songs in other tongues, no matter what the singers say). In America, on the contrary, lyrics must be written and sung in English, otherwise people don't even consider it "a song". The few non-american, not-english-speaking artists who want to publish their music overseas, have to translate their lyrics into English and re-record their songs in English. Rather embarassing, but still. By the way: do you really think all the millions people living in so called "American colonies" understand American songs lyrics? They don't. I don't. Hardly anyone does.
I read somewhere that The Dark Side Of The Moon album or CD is the most globally successful music by any band ever. Does this success include countries like Japan, Russia, etc?
It's not for the lyrics. It's for the music. We focus on music.
Are the Beatles only big in countries that understand the English language?
No. Again: US Empire (the fact some British/Canadian/Australian/Irish artists can sometimes be as famous as American ones is just a consequence of language: because they use the same tongue of the US Empire, they become famous in America and consequently in the rest of the world. Never the contrary).
If music is universal then why do a lot of countries (still?) prefer music that are using those countries's musical scales? Is music preference really just cultural brainwashing and not universal at all?
Music is universal. U.S. pop music spread all over the world, on the contrary, is a consequence of WW2 and U.S. dominance: what you rightly call "cultural brainwashing". The same for movies, more or less: 9 movies out of 10 in almost any cinema of the colonies are usually "Hollywood industry entertainment" shitty products. Not to mention TV formats and serials. It has nothing to do with style and scales. It's just cultural domination, alas. In the U.S.A. less than 0,000000001% of movies, serials, shows, songs... are not American. Guess why...
Music is universal, not subjective. "Subjective" is the way you emotionally experience music, not music.
Why are instrumentals less popular than songs.
Not true. Instrumentals are more popular in this part of the world.
Are lyrics more powerful than music?
No.
My CD collection is of bands mostly from the UK (and its colonies) and America (a former colony). I then noticed for the first time that I don't have any songs in my CD collection that are from Russia and China and probably a lot of other "non-English" countries as well.
It is just the consequence of so called "American Imperialism", nothing else. 99% of American music is as shitty as the music of any other country, yet you can find it everywhere. it's just a question of profit, how US export and impose their products (music, movies etc.) all over the world thanks to the fact they won WW2. As a consequence, in U.S. it is the exact opposite: probably less than 0,1% is non-American pop/rock/wathever music, and probably only because of latinos and other ethnic minorities market. They call it "import music" or smth. I guess most of Americans totally ignore outside U.S. there are thousands of non-american artists who have sold millions records, singing in Italian, Spanish, French, Japanese, Korean, German, Arabic, Russian etc.
If I start listening to Russian and Chinese music would I start liking them? Would I start liking the Russian music scale, the Chinese scale? Or is it too late? I don't seem to have the drive to do it.
If you only think we (people of post war American colonies) have to listen to all that shitty American pop music on the radio, on tv, airports, shops, restaurants, waiting rooms, everywhere, all the time, h24, even if we hate it...
Or you think it's so popular because we like it?...And then I thought "If the lyrics to all these English bands that I like were not in English would they be in my CD collection?"
Yes and No. If you are American, I guess probably no. That is because in not-AmEng speaking countries lyrics are not so important, since we focus more on music (and that is why we are more prepared to listen to songs in other tongues, no matter what the singers say). In America, on the contrary, lyrics must be written and sung in English, otherwise people don't even consider it "a song". The few non-american, not-english-speaking artists who want to publish their music overseas, have to translate their lyrics into English and re-record their songs in English. Rather embarassing, but still. By the way: do you really think all the millions people living in so called "American colonies" understand American songs lyrics? They don't. I don't. Hardly anyone does.
I read somewhere that The Dark Side Of The Moon album or CD is the most globally successful music by any band ever. Does this success include countries like Japan, Russia, etc?
It's not for the lyrics. It's for the music. We focus on music.
Are the Beatles only big in countries that understand the English language?
No. Again: US Empire (the fact some British/Canadian/Australian/Irish artists can sometimes be as famous as American ones is just a consequence of language: because they use the same tongue of the US Empire, they become famous in America and consequently in the rest of the world. Never the contrary).
If music is universal then why do a lot of countries (still?) prefer music that are using those countries's musical scales? Is music preference really just cultural brainwashing and not universal at all?
Music is universal. U.S. pop music spread all over the world, on the contrary, is a consequence of WW2 and U.S. dominance: what you rightly call "cultural brainwashing". The same for movies, more or less: 9 movies out of 10 in almost any cinema of the colonies are usually "Hollywood industry entertainment" shitty products. Not to mention TV formats and serials. It has nothing to do with style and scales. It's just cultural domination, alas. In the U.S.A. less than 0,000000001% of movies, serials, shows, songs... are not American. Guess why...
-
- KVRAF
- 8082 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
I enjoy a lot of Finnish folk music, Mongolian folk metal, Gaelic tunes, Middle Eastern dance/pop stuff even though English is the only language I am fluent in. My spouse is really getting into J-pop, and doesn't speak Japanese more than any other anime fan. I was in a taiko drumming group for a couple of years, and while there are definitely regional and stylistic variations in taiko, the excitement carries through regardless of where you're from.
Music is like food -- it's cultural and universal both. It can be a doorway into appreciating a culture.
Music is like food -- it's cultural and universal both. It can be a doorway into appreciating a culture.
-
- KVRAF
- 4141 posts since 11 Aug, 2006 from Texas
Music is as human as language or social constructs (like justice and fairness) that only exist in the minds of all of us.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man
Different cultures have different musical scales and song structures for the same reason we have different languages: because of different external influences and different evolution paths. At the end of the day it's all tapping into the same mental "hooks" we're born with.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20140907 ... modern-man
Different cultures have different musical scales and song structures for the same reason we have different languages: because of different external influences and different evolution paths. At the end of the day it's all tapping into the same mental "hooks" we're born with.
Feel free to call me Brian.
-
- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
perhaps one part of being universal is because possibly the one common thing is that each culture has it's own music that affects the people's emotions, sentiments and such while providing a great way to communicate them to other members of said culture...these things may differ in each culture but it's possible that a common factor is any given culture's music is quite effective at stimulating these things significant to their culture and heritage. For years it was thought that music was a product of language but there is some interesting research on the subject and it's now thought possible music predated or developed parallel to language.
Perhaps the key to understanding another culture is through it's music, not it's pop music mind you but it's "folk" music for lack of a better term. If you dont understand a culture and accept it's different ways than yours you're likely not to understand their music, if you dont understand their music chances are you wont like it. Not all people view music as a commercial venture and conversely not all musicians main passion is music as music is only the vehicle used to obtain the wealth, status or what have you the really seek. However even commercial music can represent a culture or a period of time once again stimulating those same things.
Perhaps the over commercialization of music is a more modern thing and that is where subjectivity and judgement came into play. Like the old saying "if only the birds who sang the best sang the woods would be a quiet place", early man who used music (and dance) to communicate and to celebrate cared not for any such thing as talent. I'm not sure while feasting such statements as "I liked it but I really didn't feel the emotional rush when you finally brought down the Woolly Mammoth" was heard. Until one day someone came along and decided to make a profit off of it introducing new concepts like talent and subjectivity...
Perhaps the key to understanding another culture is through it's music, not it's pop music mind you but it's "folk" music for lack of a better term. If you dont understand a culture and accept it's different ways than yours you're likely not to understand their music, if you dont understand their music chances are you wont like it. Not all people view music as a commercial venture and conversely not all musicians main passion is music as music is only the vehicle used to obtain the wealth, status or what have you the really seek. However even commercial music can represent a culture or a period of time once again stimulating those same things.
Perhaps the over commercialization of music is a more modern thing and that is where subjectivity and judgement came into play. Like the old saying "if only the birds who sang the best sang the woods would be a quiet place", early man who used music (and dance) to communicate and to celebrate cared not for any such thing as talent. I'm not sure while feasting such statements as "I liked it but I really didn't feel the emotional rush when you finally brought down the Woolly Mammoth" was heard. Until one day someone came along and decided to make a profit off of it introducing new concepts like talent and subjectivity...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
-
- KVRAF
- 1724 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from betwixt
No, I don't think music is "universal."
Music is a linguistic expression of an abstraction of sensory information.
It's also not a competitive f**king sport, except when it is deliberately and forcibly distorted into such, and then it becomes a f**king product and indoctrination tool that has nothing to say except "conform, buy, consume, produce, obey."
That's my Sunday Sermon
Music is a linguistic expression of an abstraction of sensory information.
It's also not a competitive f**king sport, except when it is deliberately and forcibly distorted into such, and then it becomes a f**king product and indoctrination tool that has nothing to say except "conform, buy, consume, produce, obey."
That's my Sunday Sermon
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7001 posts since 20 Mar, 2012 from Babbleon
How can music be universal if some people say it is universal and some people don't? In other words, if music is universal, shouldn't everybody agree that yes it is universal? Find the fault in my logic (or illogic), if it's there. I kind of think it's there.
Sometimes, someone says something and I think to myself "Hey yeah, that's true eh". Thanks, everyone, for the interesting varied input, it's good to know what musical people from probably a chunk of everywhere are thinking. It's like a think tank. Two or more brains are better than one. More often yes than no? Thanks again.
Sometimes, someone says something and I think to myself "Hey yeah, that's true eh". Thanks, everyone, for the interesting varied input, it's good to know what musical people from probably a chunk of everywhere are thinking. It's like a think tank. Two or more brains are better than one. More often yes than no? Thanks again.
ah böwakawa poussé poussé
-
- KVRian
- 1148 posts since 29 Jun, 2012
Everywhere I have been in the universe there was music.
Except space; in space no one can hear you stream.
Except space; in space no one can hear you stream.
-
- Banned
- 5357 posts since 7 May, 2015
Not bad, not bad. Changing the subject on purpose, it is funny how that movie had that title, but you could hear the signals from the Nostromo ... in spaceontol wrote:Everywhere I have been in the universe there was music.
Except space; in space no one can hear you stream.
