Is anyone feeling Punk-Hop?

[Haghi]

What Tony and I were saying is that Rock finds itself today in a position where it risks becoming irrelevant without embracing new ideas and people.
It happened before with other music. No one wants rock to die or stagnate but it seems to be reluctant to move on and accept new ideas, technology and cultures into it.

I really cant understand what makes you say something like that? Isnt this an exagerated generalism (I hope this is proper English ), I mean, sure, The Ramones had like 500 songs and they all sounded alike (btw, Im a HUGE Ramones fan), but as in all things of life, they DO NOT represent "Rock" as it is, nor did The Rolling Stones, Black Sabbath, whatever band you name... Rock is soooooooo diverse (and despite what you say, renewing itsself constantly!) that you cant pin it down to one group, (sub)genre, style or even music (I know this sounds odd, but I mean it).

As I see it, everyday people are born, that have to find their way into this world. Everyday they discover new things. Music is one of them, cultures and knowledge are other ones, and you have many of those things. And as long as people are discovering things, "good" music, whether it be rock, classical, pop, jazz, blues, hiphop, country, you name 'em will always exist and from time to time, musicians will pick up the elements THEY like from all these genres and hey... maybe create a new genre! And thats why imho rock (and other genres that have "proven" to last in time) will never die. They will appear in other forms, might evolve, but the listener with good ears will recognize them immediately.

[whyterabbyt]

I gave up on this thread when it got to the point that the existence of a rock-derived subgenre was the start of a debate about the 'death' of rock, and how 'rock needs to adapt to new trends'. With the same person as started the thread cdoing both parts....

[HanafiH]

[TVD]

On a decline for the last 25 years though? What about that period from 1980 to about 91?

All I remember is van halen, motley crew, poison, white snake, etc. Those groups were feckin huge! I would have to say that was not a time in decline in rock.

hehe, that reminds of when NWA was getting notoriety. Man o man, when my mother first heard that shit......

1988....was something else.

When N.W.A. & 2 Live Crew came along, all hell broke loose.

[TVD]

I say it all started with Anthrax and RunDMC singing "Bring the noise"
White rockers playing heavy guitars together with black rappers singing



Oh and Lady J, no offense, but theres IS a world outside USA , country (EDIT: I mean the genre of music ofcourse...) means NOTHING in Europe and Hiphop and R&B are popular genres here, but go to no matter what summerfestival in Europe and Im sure you'll see enough rock bands (modern, old, whatever,...) and most of these festival are sold out, which means up to 120.000 people.

Not so long ago i saw Rainbow (Ritchie Blackmore is GOD ), Deep Purple, AC/DC, Iron Maiden, and they still can sell out a full stadium, not to mention The Boss (yeah, to me, Bruce Springsteen is Rock).

And if you say that most of the radiostations dont play rock in USA, move over to here, enough rock on the radio here. And since when do magazines tell the truth (you say that there are so many articles in the rock press stating that rock is dead)?

Ah well, after all, it IS a matter of taste and as a wise man once said: "de gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est" .

Btw 1 question: Do you consider classical music (i.e. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc...) to be dead? If so, why? Because few people listen to it? Because you never hear it on the radio? Because there are almost no new artists in this genre? Because the magazines say so ?

As always, no offense intended, if so, I dont really care

You cannot put classical or jazz in the same sentence as pop culture. That's exactly like 3 different planets

Before Hip-Hop of Funk, it was the jazz community that was resposible for The Jam. Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea & Miles Davis are perfect examples of real jazz to my ears.

But as soon as jazz change the mood to the damn coffeehouse, that kill it for me.

As for classical, I feel the 21st century sound pretty well (if Bond or Enya counts for anything). But as usual, most of the youth will not listen to this unless it has drums beats in it.

[Lady J]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. born in the era of the Renaissance, it was the first complex, all-encapsulating form of musical expression ever in a time where men's knowledge multiplied exponentially.. it was the birth of modern man (so that excludes cavemen hitting each other on the head with bones). It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Wow, and if that is not loaded with western bias I don't know what is.I can't believe you said that. Its funny to anyone who has studied ethnomusicology or the origins of say the guitar....

[pHz]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. born in the era of the Renaissance, it was the first complex, all-encapsulating form of musical expression ever in a time where men's knowledge multiplied exponentially.. it was the birth of modern man (so that excludes cavemen hitting each other on the head with bones). It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Wow, and if that is not loaded with western bias I don't know what is. Its funny to anyone who has studied ethnomusicology or the origins of say the guitar....

but not funny to anyone who understands that for MOST people their point of cultural reference is their OWN culture ...

... thats NOT a bias

slainte rob

[Lady J]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. born in the era of the Renaissance, it was the first complex, all-encapsulating form of musical expression ever in a time where men's knowledge multiplied exponentially.. it was the birth of modern man (so that excludes cavemen hitting each other on the head with bones). It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Wow, and if that is not loaded with western bias I don't know what is. Its funny to anyone who has studied ethnomusicology or the origins of say the guitar....

but not funny to anyone who understands that for MOST people their point of cultural reference is their OWN culture ...

... thats NOT a bias

slainte rob

No just cultural ignorance or superiority. Definately not bias. Bias implies they know better. I thought spaceman did know better as he seems to be a 'deep thinker' about music. Most people big into music generally learn a little about where music comes from or at least asks the question. To proclaim the beginning of everything cultural and civilised as coming from a relatively recent point in human history ignores what most of us learned about the world in school.

Or at least I thought it did.

And what is exactly would MY culture be?
Being part African-American, Native American and Irish means that I can't point to any one of them and say "this is MY culture' but i can point to all of them and say that. Maybe that's what Tony was getting at. Since most people of colour are of mixed cultures then maybe there is more that can be added to a genre which has become self-referencing?

[cptgone]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. [...] It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Should I laugh or cry?

[topaz]

ahhh,

is this a form of Hip Hop where they wear old scruffy clothes ?

or another that complains about the homeless and starving people while walking round in $200 trainers dripping with gold ?

[spaceman]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. born in the era of the Renaissance, it was the first complex, all-encapsulating form of musical expression ever in a time where men's knowledge multiplied exponentially.. it was the birth of modern man (so that excludes cavemen hitting each other on the head with bones). It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Wow, and if that is not loaded with western bias I don't know what is.I can't believe you said that. Its funny to anyone who has studied ethnomusicology or the origins of say the guitar....

where do you think hip-hop etc. came from.. not african music.. of course I'm talking about western bias, that's where it came from

maybe the music wouldn't be so bad if they stayed loyal to their own roots

[pHz]

heehee - and so the old game begins ...

No just cultural ignorance or superiority.

the latter opinion is a HUGE unfounded assumption ... the former you MIGHT be right but see below ...

Definately not bias. Bias implies they know better.

no it doesnt - bias OFTEN comes from a lack of insight or understanding

I thought spaceman did know better as he seems to be a 'deep thinker' about music. Most people big into music generally learn a little about where music comes from or at least asks the question.

why ???

since music is primarily a means of expression (rather than a socio-political tool) is it not enough just to like it and want to make it ???

To proclaim the beginning of everything cultural and civilised as coming from a relatively recent point in human history ignores what most of us learned about the world in school.

you had an uncommonly good education then ... rightly or wrongly UK schools (cant speak for elsewhere but my understanding of US education suggests its true there too) still teach culture and history from a pretty western-centric perspective and in that context the renaissaince WAS pretty much the starting point of what we call the modern world (of course going deeper even this has its roots in other not-so-western cultures and philosophies)

Or at least I thought it did.

as ive just said ...

... anyway - in overview (and i think this has been said elsewhere) you need to stop applying the specific (ie - your opinions and experiences) to the general (ie - everybody else) ... you REALLY cant judge the rest of the world based on what you perceive and believe and then expect them to conform (or even understand) ...

... to paraphrase a cliched (but nonetheless true) non-western philosophy ... dont judge others until youve walked a mile in their shoes ...

slainte rob

[spaceman]

classical music was the first real musical expression of a culture.. [...] It was the birth of music and everything that followed is born out of it..

Should I laugh or cry?

I see you strategically left out the parts that matter

what would you quote as the origin of jazz, blues, rock, pop, etc. then?

african conga music?
russian kozak flute music?

I'm not talking about the origin of all music, only the said genres

[spaceman]

Wow, and if that is not loaded with western bias I don't know what is.I can't believe you said that. Its funny to anyone who has studied ethnomusicology or the origins of say the guitar....

and music is more than the instruments used you know..

[cptgone]

what would you quote as the origin of jazz, blues, rock, pop, etc. then?

african conga music?
russian kozak flute music?

I'm not talking about the origin of all music, only the said genres

jeez man, give up, you're living up to your sig here.

jazz and blues were indeed influenced by western march music and church hymns. but the thing that makes them tick comes from Africa.

like the chemical bros say: "It began in Africa.. ca.. ca"!