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zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:43 am

there is something that makes it C minor, the minor 3rd....thats what defines it as minor key. that interval, of +3 from the tonic, that is the essential structure

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:41 am

i like this song, my valentine, anyone know similar jazz songs to that? like ten songs

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:35 pm

zethus909 wrote:i like this song, my valentine, anyone know similar jazz songs to that? like ten songs

That would probably be "My funny Valentine"
A huge list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1 ... _standards

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:15 am

thanks, i started at 1930. ive been through about 20 now, and i dont like any of them. i dont like theorchestra....i want mainly piano/bass/sax/solo trumpet stuff songs that are played by a trio etc, and that have gravity and emotion

the stuff i am hearing so far is cheesy, and sounds like modern pop music. plastic and processed. cookie cutter sounds. maybe its that period, but the valentine song is from then isnt it so...idk, i am getting fed up trying to go through this list. thats why i am asking for some specific suggestions...anyway this isnt really relatd to the topic, so...pm me if you know some good jazz music. that is not corny.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:06 am

A_SN wrote:
KoolKool wrote:i have trouble when starting a new music project........ what scale,what root note should i choose?!

i'm starting instrumental music project with alots of melody,variety genres so

so i need your help

Scales that sound "heroic and battle spirit"
...
I think it's a mistake to approach it like this. I see too many people on this forum talking about scales like it's so important to always choose the right semi-exotic scale. You can achieve all those things you listed with a simple natural minor scale.

Possibly, but you're arguing against use of a wider palette as though an ethos, where there could just be (and often is) a best choice of material. I'll give one example below.

A_SN wrote:A more important thing concerning scales is actually to know when to step out of your scale or modify something. So you wouldn't say "oh I know I'm gonna make an entire thing in double harmonic/neapolitan minor/whole tone scale and see what mood that gives me".

The root note doesn't matter much...

Well, I might say just that, and have.

When an Indian classical musician composes a raga, she chooses a parent raga, called Thaat, as a beginning. Scalar set, and on the face of it nothing more than that (It may suggest quite a lot thru the history of ragas under that Thaat.).
Then the shape is formed, prescribed moves to promote the best chance of creating the mood or sound-world intent of the piece. Say '7 should not go to 8 very soon, but do...'
The *entire thing* is those 7, or 6 or 5 notes. More rarely, there are 8 or 9 (and I've heard of a 12-note raga). But it's all about making an undeniable argument for [all] your choices.
So, I don't find that advice suitable for everyone or every time. I quite favor a couple of my solos which stayed with 6 notes. It made the mood. But I'm working out of long experience with such. I knew certain things were available to me with that 'layout'.

It looks like you've both confounded 'root' for <tonic>. 'Root' can only mean root of a chord. I'm unsure of the meaning of "doesn't matter much".

I couldn't easily say exactly why I choose say tonic = Bb, but it is a different thing to begin with than tonic = E. From a keyboard perspective and 12tET! Let alone guitar basis where your open strings can be real determinants in improvisation.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:16 am

Anyway I'll take this opp to post a good example of Ionian to show some things you may not expect can happen, and that could not be other than <on E>.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:01 am

Ok, this thing is about the most mysterious music I ever heard. Marwa Raga. Six notes.

Has a false tonic really: where the drone resides is a minor third below the de facto tonic. It looks like minor pentatonic with a flat 5 in addition to reg. 5, but 5 b5 4 3 is musically 3 b3 2 1. Here is complex thought, you're in conflict with the given tonic (the drone) in a weird way. Many shades and shift of hue here. I would say the major pentatonic he effects* is like light we hadn't seen amidst this dusk that's a little ominous.

Not for the real short attention span one supposes (*: after a few minutes). The upshot here is don't facilely assume so much about a mere set of notes. It's not so simple like that. And more is not always more.

A_SN · Post by **A_SN** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:23 pm

jancivil wrote:you're arguing against use of a wider palette as though an ethos

No I'm just saying it's the wrong thing to focus on, as too many people on this forum seem to do.

MadBrain · Post by **MadBrain** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:33 pm

I guess I'd just say that starting by focusing on scale selection first seems more of an Indian music way of doing things, and that European music places less importance on this. But then again, you can compose whatever way you like.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:26 pm

A_SN wrote:
jancivil wrote:you're arguing against use of a wider palette as though an ethos
No I'm just saying it's the wrong thing to focus on, as too many people on this forum seem to do.

Well, I don't know why it's "wrong" other than what you said the other time you objected to starting off with "exotic scales"; it's better to learn diatonic function. This is apples vs oranges and I don't see the necessity for a dichotomy.
And 'it's better to study functional harmony than to look to exotic scales' is like an ethos: a guiding belief.

You know what, ICM musicians don't study harmony. Composers of Arab and Persian maqam, no harmony dealings. All these musics are deep.
So, what, Western Harmony as hegemony? Seems like a narrow world-view.

I was conversant with the idea of forming your own scalar material before I studied part-writing in the Common Practice Period manner (and apart from my bands spent most of my time over a drone playing modally). I'm happy with how I turned out. (I mastered part-writing, and while I'm sure I could not handle our final exam at CCM today, I find that this training was invaluable for me, even as I have never composed capital T Tonal music.) It didn't hurt me much. (My noodling bugged the shit out of my teacher, tho'.)

I guess 'exotic scales' comes up a lot here because it's fun.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:35 pm

And 'stick to minor' sure looks like arguing for a restricted palette.

After my first year at CCM, I was SICK of Western Music. I moved away from it to explore other avenues. I do not believe that writing harmonically will through itself produce a superior melodic sense. For myself, I have a lot more going on than ICM vertically, sonorities, as well as a linear contrapuntal modus operandi fundamentally, so it's good that I have a way of sorting that was informed by intensive, heavy-duty part-writing. But I find Indian Classical Music superior melodically by a long ways.

Scale selection to begin!