Izotope releases Neutron: "A smarter way to mix"

[jens]

What I would really want is to buy their Track Assistant/Neutrino/Masking Meter as one plugin. Everything else is really throw away for me on a personal level.

Hm... the Track Assistant without the processors it controls would be like trying to clap with one hand.

Neutrino is available as an individual (free) plugin btw (in case you missed it)

[moonmadness]

double post

[jpga]

Love this tool!

[nirm123]

for me The main reason for buying the Neutron so was the track assistance which I found to be brilliant and forward thinking idea (from what I heard and read) however I currently fail to understand how it can acheive what is supposed to do so maybe I'm doing something wrong here...

According to what I read I saw (I read the whole manual + saw many "how to" videos) this is a much more than a simple preset manager but should really listen to your specific audio and act accordingly.

after 6 days of using this plug-in I start to notice however that it doesn't matter what kind of vocal track (for an example) I'd use as its input, it would always act in the same way once he spotted it's a vocal track.

then I tried to validated my concerns, I used Neutron track assistance, then I added another insert FX for Neutron and used track assistance again and I found that I wasn't wrong - in theory the 2nd instance shouldn't have done much since it already assisted in the 1st plugin insert, and now again...instead of not doing much it repeated again the same EQ + Comp + Exciter configuration ! I even tried to go further and put extreme gain reduction nodes in the same frequency area on which the 2nd instance suggested gain reduction (although it was already applied in the 1st instance) and again, as soon as it's identified it's a vocal track - it suggested to have the same exact EQ configuration although in the said frequency there had barely any data left.

please correct me if I'm doing something wrong here, but for me it seems that it just analyzes the audio input only to understand what kind of instrument it's and from this point it will use the exact preset which doesn't assist much. I can just pick a vocal preset myself from a much larger selection available. Someone here refered to all drum track compressor being suggested the exact same release time but it goes much more further than this, if you put 4 Neutron instances one after another they will all suggest the same configuration unless I'm doing something really stupid in here (I really hope so because I want this plugin to be as brilliant as I originally thought it's). So please proove me wrong otherwise I'm not the only silly person in here...what does it say for all the ppl in here who claimed that the track assitant manage to improve their mixes using its initial suggestions ?

[plexuss]

I just put 4 instances in series after a drum machine plugin. I ran Track Assistant on each one when the previous one was complete. each instance has a different set of settings. I think it uses the same signal chain for the track-type it deduces (eg. drum, clean, etc) but it's definitely changing the parameters of each plugin.

The EQs were definitely different. the compressors were similar except the thesholds were different. the exciters were pretty much the same.

I tried a different drum patch and ran them again. this time with this patch the module parameters were all quite different - the EQs and the Exciters were all set differently (I didn't really check the compressors).

So I think it's not just picking a preset. I can't speculate on what it's doing under the hood to account for the similar settings when using this with serial instances but I wouldn't say its "suspect" that its coming up with similar settings.

[nirm123]

Thanks for checking it, I'm working with reaper and I ran tests for few hours, as I wrote I'd be happy to understand if I'm doing something wrong.

plexuss, did you try to do some extreme EQ setting before Neutron and then see how it affects EQ suggestion ? by extreme I mean something like high cut filter placed at 8Khz, It didn't have any affect on my testings.

regarding compressors - I did see it for sure checks the input level and change compressor setting threshold accordingly, this I can verify but except for suiting the threshold to your audio input level I see it leaves all the other configuration (ratio, times) exactly the same.

moreover, you mentioned putting 4 instances in series as I mentioned, in this case should each instance suggest compressor and exciter all over again ? the input by then is extremely compressed and distorted.

lets say you're running 1 instances as one might expect and the input is distorted and compressed signal, it will suggest you to compress it again and distort it further, this doesn't sound good.

I'd love to read more experiences and thoughts about it.

thanks.

B.T.W - I hope it's OK to quote a post from gearslutz from today that I just saw now, so it's not only me...

"i tried nuetron on two completely different vocals. and the settings it gave me were exactly the same. so now i know it's not fully custom. It seems like it just detects what the sound is, then selects the closest preset. not exactly what i expected it to be. I expected fully a custom track assistant with custom eq and compression settings based on the material, but it's not even close to that. Wishful thinking I guess. i think its an ok tool but would not buy it personally. The good news is the eq / compression seems to be great quality, if your just looking for an all in 1 mix tool this is hard to beat."

[plexuss]

I just tried an EQ pre Neutron with a resonant peak at 1kHz. Neutron didn't correct it. however, I don't think Neutron is trying to correct anything. Again, without knowing what it's doing under the hood, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on determining if its "working or not". Just use it as intended: to provide a possibility in terms of parameters and some visual insight into whats going on with your tracks. The fact that it doesn't correct intentional imposed anomalies nor act in a predictable way when used in series doesn't mean its not working or not useful. Using it as intended, if its providing some insight into your mix to help you correct it and some good sounding processors, then it's fulfilling expectations, no?

[nirm123]

sorry but not really, if my checks (and other user checks which I quoted here) are right than the track assistant has no real value at all, people rather work with regular presets.

this is being advertised as smart mix console, not as a great channel strip and by reading this thread posts one by one I see it was the main selling factor for many people so we do have the right to believe what was specifically claimed meaning that it not just suggesting random presets but it listen to your specific audio, analyzes it and suggest initial setting which is SUITED to your specific audio.

from what I see so far, using "old fashion" presets is much more clever because there are many of them and I can pick a one which is closer fit to my specific audio.

without the track assistant feature the product exposure would be maybe 30% of what it got, there are better compressors and EQs (although I admit that these are very good) and certainly better exciters. look at all the video on youtube by izotope, soundonsound review for an example who hosted the product manager, the main feature they present is the track assistant and it's specifically being stated that it analyses your audio to suggest a matching setup. if it just do it to find it's a vocal track and then give the same preset...no, this is not what the product intends to do, why would anyone use it all ? it won't lead us anywhere going to the vocal presets, closing your eyes and pick a random preset, I don't think many ppl would like to use it as a suggested initial setting.

if the manual should give any indication of what the product intends to do then :

"At the touch of the appropriately named Track Assistant button, Neutron will listen to the audio
input, determine its key characteristics, and deliver a new preset that’s custom tuned to your
audio in a variety of ways"

"It’s a combination of audio intelligence producing unique settings every time (some settings on
your drum bus, for example, might be very different to settings on someone else’s drum bus)"

[plexuss]

Using my brain, I might sort of agree with you. But I am using my ears, and so far I am finding the Track Assistant provides some good ideas to help my tracks sound better. So for me, it's useful and meets my expectations. YMMV

[nirm123]

thanks plexuss, it's certainly your right to think this way I hope that you can understand why I see it in a different way.

the claimed functionally was something which many of us really wanted...I think that this is why some (as me) really wanted to be convinced and it took few day (for me at least) to start seeing this in a different way.

again, I might be wrong here...more ppl are welcome to perform these testings.

[plexuss]

It's definitely possible that customers will have different understandings of Neutron's features and value. I don't consider it to be a magic bullet but rather a tool to help me identify possible issues in my mixes. I am not too concerned that it doesn't correct obvious "issues" that I have imposed on the tracks (eg. the test with the over-exaggerated resonant peak) because the code has to be optimized for specific use cases - to code it to deal with all use cases would be almost impossible. so it assumes the tracks are going to be of decent quality to begin with. it likely "assumes" what it hears is generally as desired but tries to find opportunities to subtly adjust the tracks towards the user selected goal (in the Track Assistant menus). from what I have gathered, its not meant to provide overt adjustments.

But, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool... not every plugin is going to work for everyone. It's pretty feature packed and outside of Track Assistant probably has other value to audio folks. Especially at these sale prices!

[nirm123]

I wouldn't argue at all about the plugin merits as a channel strip. still, I suspect (only "suspect" because it's my personnel opinion) that some of the main things which the product intends to do - it simply can't perform and this is frustrating for people who saw the main added value of this product in the track assistant feature which was certainly the main celebrated feature.

alloy2 is also a great channel strip and the main justification in my eyes for selling Neutron as a completely new product with no upgrade possibilities from alloy2 (except for the current upgrade till end/OCT) is because a crucial new feature was added, and it seems that this is the track assistant feature that if it's working as described is a real amazing revolution. so yes, masking is also very cool and quite a new an important feature (not quite new as the track assistant intended purpose) but I think that without track assistant izotope would have find it very difficult to sell Neutron as a complete new product and not as alloy3.

[plexuss]

It's easy to impose one's own assumptions and expectations so lets revisit what iZotope claims about Neutron Track Assistant. I took these from their website (https://www.izotope.com/en/products/mix/neutron.html):

1. lets you create a custom preset based on your audio
2. get you to a faster starting point
3. different instrument tracks are automatically detected
4. applies the spectral shaping technology to provide subtle clarity and balance to each of your tracks
5. EQ nodes are intelligently placed where Track Assistant thinks you need them
6. speeding up your workflow
7. eliminating much of the EQ guesswork
8. recommendations for optimal starting points across all of Neutron's modules
9. offer ‘infinite’ presets that are custom tailored to your sound
10. allowing full control over all your mix decisions

Which of these are not meeting your expectations? This can help you rate Neutron against iZotope's claims.

[nirm123]

I'll start with another quote from gearslutz (last time I'm doing it, I promise!) posted just now :

"I thought it was supposed to use some sort of resonance detection algorithm to analyze, detect and then address problems which are specific to each individual track.

However, what it seems to be doing is simply detecting the nature of the instrument on each track and applying a fixed preset every time.

Honestly, this is quite disappointing. I've tried it on a bunch of different vocals and acoustic guitar sessions and it came up with the same results most of the times."

and now answering your question :

1) lets you create a custom preset based on your audio - not true, this is not really based on the audio as vastly different audio will generate the same exact preset
2) get you to a faster starting point - not at all, on the contrary, starting from random preset has no value, it will just make me harder to fix it
3) different instrument tracks are automatically detected - true but isn't useful, as it doesn't do anything meaningful with this detection
4) applies the spectral shaping technology to provide subtle clarity and balance to each of your tracks - honestly, I didn't notice this effect too much so this one I'll ignore, could be true
5) EQ nodes are intelligently placed where Track Assistant thinks you need them - false, there is not interlligent about it, just pure guess
6) speeding up your workflow - again, slowing it down really, I just lost 6 days over it (yes, I know, should have noticed it earlier)
7) eliminating much of the EQ guesswork - I don't see it's true
recommendations for optimal starting points across all of Neutron's modules - not true at all, there is nothing optimal about these starting points
9) offer ‘infinite’ presets that are custom tailored to your sound - not true but it was already discussed
10) allowing full control over all your mix decisions - 100% true, it offer control as you can completely ignore the track assistant and start on your own using an excellent channel strip with high quality compression/EQ/trans shaper.

[garryknight]

A few things occurred to me while using Neutron:

1) iZotope are going to have their work cut out for them, IMO. Where do they go next? What makes most sense to me, and I'm sure other people are going to think of this, is if the next version of Neutron were to listen to all of the tracks when making decisions about any particular track. Just as when we make manual changes to any of our DAW's channels, we listen to those changes in the context of the whole mix, perhaps Neutron ought to be doing the same.

2) I was one of the people who, when first using the standalone Neutrino, was able to hear the changes even though they were subtle. When I use Neutron's Track Assistant, I'm not so easily able to hear those changes that the built-in Neutrino makes, even if I A/B them. Anyone else noticed this?

3) For me, learning to mix audio has been a process of 'homing in'. When I started, I'd EQ a track and wouldn't really know what to listen for, so I wouldn't realise how gross my changes were. Likewise with compression. The more I've listened, the more I now know what to expect, so I spot the problem areas more easily and home in on them faster. It seems to me that this is one area where Neutron's Track Assistant, the Learn functions, and the Masking feature can help most. By noticing and really listening to what Neutron does, people starting out in mixing might progress pretty quickly towards 'homing in' on where adjustments need to be made, even when they're not using Neutron. Probably stating the obvious here.

4) On the other hand, some people might just put Neutron on every channel and only use Track Assistant (and maybe Masking on kick and bass channels), then think that that's good enough. Maybe it will be good enough. Maybe we could call those people 'Neutron stars'.

5) When using Masking, for me it's never enough to only check kick against bass, vocals against guitar and so on. There are enough EQ nodes available to check most channels against each other and get everything nicely separated out. Anyone else found that?


Could it be useful to change the title of this thread? Neutron is getting a lot of interest and many people might not know of the thread's existence.