Acoustic Grand Piano libraries/emulations: An Overview (audio demos of some pianos added)

[fmr]

Thanks. I listened to it (both version) and also to the Appassionata (the pieces that I think are more challenging), and it seems to me that the piano lacks depth and body, and also dynamics (too flat).

Maybe it's because of the settings. Is there any preset that uses the buil-in reverb (I presume it's a convolution reverb), in the Player position (not the Close) and with a name that stands for something like "recital" or "prelude" or "hall piano" or something like that? Can you render examples with that setting, without any modifications, and without anything else (no compression and no external effects of any kind)?

[Ingonator]

Thanks. I listened to it (both version) and also to the Appassionata (the pieces that I think are more challenging), and it seems to me that the piano lacks depth and body, and also dynamics (too flat).

Maybe it's because of the settings. Is there any preset that uses the buil-in reverb (I presume it's a convolution reverb), in the Player position (not the Close) and with a name that stands for something like "recital" or "prelude" or "hall piano" or something like that? Can you render examples with that setting, without any modifications, and without anything else (no compression and no external effects of any kind)?

FWIW after less then 2 days using teh Ravenscroft 275 library it is mayb a bit too early for having found the perfect settings, especially fopr certain tracks. Independent of that it sounds graet for me so far.

Anyway the dynamics settings in this are quite versatile as you got 3 main parameters:
- Dynamics knob (default value 96,0%)
- Dynamics Sensitivity curve
- Velocity curve (with "Bend" knob for easy adjustment or freely adjustable/drawable

The results you get depends on all 3 settings so finding the perfect one is not easy.

I created 3 demos that use no external FXs, the "Player" mic position, a "Bright Concert Hall" Reverb preset, the Dynamics value at deafult (96%) and a velocity curve a bit harder than a linear one.
Those use 3 differnt settinsgs of the Dynamics Sensitivity curve (default, linear and hard):
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #1
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #2
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #3

Another demo that uses the "Dynamics" knob at 50% and the Dynamics Sensitivity curve at default (like in the first demo above):
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #1_2

I will also try other combinations soon.

[fmr]

Those use 3 differnt settinsgs of the Dynamics Sensitivity curve (default, linear and hard):
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #1
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #2
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #3.

First one is the best, IMO. So, I would say the dynamics has to be used at almost maxmum all the time, and the default velocity curve is the one that fits best in what is expected as the natural response of a piano.

The piece still does not sound optimal, but that's perhaps my fault. I had to tune it to fit the piano, in terms of dynamics (I have to tune it in that aspect, anyway, still, and also make some fine tunings in the tempi - but it's mainly dynamics that need to be worked).

Anyway, a good piano, of course. Besides Player and Close, are there any other sample sub-sets?

[Ingonator]

Those use 3 differnt settinsgs of the Dynamics Sensitivity curve (default, linear and hard):
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #1
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #2
Rachmaninov - Prelude Opus 3 No.2_Ravenscroft 275_Player + Bright Concert Hall_Dynamics Curve #3.

First one is the best, IMO. So, I would say the dynamics has to be used at almost maxmum all the time, and the default velocity curve is the one that fits best in what is expected as the natural response of a piano.

The piece still does not sound optimal, but that's perhaps my fault. I had to tune it to fit the piano, in terms of dynamics (I have to tune it in that aspect, anyway, still, and also make some fine tunings in the tempi - but it's mainly dynamics that need to be worked).

Anyway, a good piano, of course. Besides Player and Close, are there any other sample sub-sets?

Those were different "Dynamics Sensitivity" curves (adjusts the Dynamics value depending on velocity), the velocity curve is a different thing (i had mentioned that there are 3 parameters that have a main influence on the dynamics). The velocity curve itseld is freely drawable but has a single knob too for easy adjustment.

Personally i found that with more soft/intimate tracks te dynamics settinsg could have a HUGE impact on the result while with more bright/aggressive tracks it is harder to notice a difference.

I also do not think that it is really possible to use a single tracks that gives informations about all spets of a piano. I like the approach of multiple different tracks better.

Anyway independent of dynamics the Ravenscroft 275 IMO sounds better than most or even all of the other piano libraries i had used. NI The Grandeur and Alicia's Keys are still great anyway for me (while they are not similar).

I will also try to update the demos where necessary ASAP. The current versions of teh demos are just the "starting" point. Finding the perfect settings for each track will maybe take a while.

[fmr]

Those were different "Dynamics Sensitivity" curves (adjusts the Dynamics value depending on velocity), the velocity curve is a different thing (i had mentioned that there are 3 parameters that have a main influence on the dynamics). The velocity curve itseld is freely drawable but has a single knob too for easy adjustment.

Sorry, I was referring to the "dynamics sensitivity curve"

Personally i found that with more soft/intimate tracks te dynamics settinsg could have a HUGE impact on the result while with more bright/aggressive tracks it is harder to notice a difference.

I also do not think that it is really possible to use a single tracks that gives informations about all spets of a piano. I like the approach of multiple different tracks better.

That's where we disagree. A piano is a piano. Pianists don't change piano in the middle of a recital, and the repertoire usually spans the entire dynamics, from soft pieces to hard pieces. So, the piano has to respond to the different playing techniques, and change the tone colour accordingly. If a virtual piano cannot do this, at least with the common settings, then it's not well built. That's where I start.

That said, I understand that, when the piano is used in ensembles other than the classical (orchestra or chamber - for example, in rock, or in jazz) usually some miking techniques are used that transform the timbre. This is as legitimate to do with a piano as it is with any other instrument (in an amplified environment, basically no instrument sounds natural anyway, and all of them are processed). That's where the special minkings and the tweakings are important. But for solo piano pieces, especially classical ones, not only these are not important as they aren't even advisable.

A single piece (piano solo) can show exactly what a piano is capable of in terms of expressiveness, tone, body and depth (and, more important, what it ISN'T capable of). Not all, just a handful of them, those that were written to span the entire capabilities of the piano. Of course, usually these are not used in the product sites - either because they are too demanding and/or because they are not "appelative" to the general public, which usually just seek a particular piano sound, and not THE piano sound. That's why things like Moonlight or Claire de Lune or Gymnopedie are used, and things like the Rach Prelude, or Scriabine, or the Revolutionary are not.

I have been collecting these pieces, and I am now (basically after this thread started) organizing them and polishing them, using the libraries I have. These pieces also have the advantage that we have several reference recordings of "real" pianos, to compare with. This is something I do, and that I consider very important. If a piano passes these tests, it is capable of everything else.

[Ingonator]

Here are screenshots of the adustments that are possible with the Ravenscroft 275 (i have created those screenshots myself):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... _GUI_1.png


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... _GUI_2.png


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... _GUI_3.png


The different mic positions have to be first loaded to be used (in the picture the unused are greyed out). To load/unload you use the symbol above the on/off switch for teh mic position. Same for teh "Una Corda", "Muted Strikes" and "Half-Pedal" samples.

The velocity curve is freely drawable and you coudl aso adjsut the "borders" (e.g. a differnt starting point than 0):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... UI_2_2.png


For easy adjustment of the velocity curve the "Bend" knob is used. A click on "Reset" resets both the Bend knob and te velocity curve (for example if you drawed a custom made one).

[fmr]

Good. Can you post the defaults of the Player set? Is it a dry patch, or has it some reverb activated?

[Ingonator]

The library file (*.UFS) is compatible with UVI Falcon and it could be integrated in the synth engine there (BTW i have not updated to the latest version of Falcon yet...):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... lcon_1.png

[Ingonator]

Good. Can you post the defaults of the Player set? Is it a dry patch, or has it some reverb activated?

Here is a screenshot of the Player preset default (velocity curve is linear and tuning at "equal temperament"):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ault_1.png


The Reverb is set to Off (= knob at minimum). You coudl only slect a differenrt Reverb preset if you use adifferenrt value rthna "Off". If set to off the drop-down is greyed out.

[fmr]

Good. Can you post the defaults of the Player set? Is it a dry patch, or has it some reverb activated?

Here is a screenshot of the Player preset default (velocity curve is linear and tuning at "equal temperament"):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ault_1.png


The Reverb is set to Off (= knob at minimum). You coudl only slect a differenrt Reverb preset if you use adifferenrt value rthna "Off". If set to off the drop-down is greyed out.

OK, thanks

[Ingonator]

Actually there are ONLY default presets, one for each mic position and one where you could use all 4.
You could save your own presets as a multi file (*.uviws file).

If you use it in UVI Falcon (also see my screenshot above) you could also save a Falcon preset file.

[fmr]

Actually there are ONLY default presets, one for each mic position and one where you could use all 4.
You could save your own presets as a multi file (*.uviws file).

If you use it in UVI Falcon (also see my screenshot above) you could also save a Falcon preset file.

Which somehow reinforces my assertion that it's pretty much meant to be adjusted by playing (and there you have the main controllers assigned to pedals, etc.). It seems thought to be played with a full weighted, piano like controller, with three pedals, naturally. You change the miking, and there you go.

[Ingonator]

Actually there are ONLY default presets, one for each mic position and one where you could use all 4.
You could save your own presets as a multi file (*.uviws file).

If you use it in UVI Falcon (also see my screenshot above) you could also save a Falcon preset file.

Which somehow reinforces my assertion that it's pretty much meant to be adjusted by playing (and there you have the main controllers assigned to pedals, etc.). It seems thought to be played with a full weighted, piano like controller, with three pedals, naturally. You change the miking, and there you go.

I am using a semi-weighted Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S61 and even with that i could playit quite nicely with settings very close to the default. I could even get "silent keystrokes" when pressing a key only lightly (minimal velocity). It is also quite easy to reach softer tones and playing more aggressive at higher works too. Of course wit ha fully weighted keyboard it should be more simple.

At the NAMM they used a modified Kawai VPC-1 and they also sell their own modified VPC-1 controllers:
https://ravenworksdigital.com/product/t ... o-model-i/
https://ravenworksdigital.com/product/t ... -model-ii/

Following the completion of our cooperative sampling project with VI Labs to develop the Ravenscroft 275 Virtual Instrument, we needed to select a quality MIDI controller to premier our new VI for the 2014 Winter NAMM Show.
After carefully researching available controllers, we chose the popular Kawai VPC1, as this keyboard was receiving a lot of attention for its realistic piano action. One month prior the 2014 Winter NAMM Show, we ordered a VPC1. Out of the box, this controller performed beautifully.
Our objective was to digitally replicate the experience of a Ravenscroft acoustic grand piano. We carried it through the procedures necessary to replicate as closely as possible the feel and expression of the action of the actual 9′ Ravenscroft 275 Concert Grand Piano – the reference instrument that was sampled to create the Ravenscroft 275 Virtual Instrument.

We have been exhibiting our acoustic grand pianos at the Winter NAMM Show for several years now. Throughout our time exhibiting, we have cultivated a growing network of Musical directors, keyboard players, and pianists who work in the music industry. Many of these people had suggested that we sample one of our pianos with a top-tier developer.
We found that developer with VI Labs. A small team whose contributions to their industry paralleled ours in many ways. That same team was enjoying international recognition for a collection of three virtual pianos called True Keys. Their ambition and dedication to improving upon their best virtual piano to date made them the logical choice for RAVENSCROFT.
In the months that followed, we arranged for their sound engineer to travel to a Phoenix studio to execute the arduous sampling process. Because of the lasting duration of sound found in our instrument, the first five notes took the engineer almost three hours to sample the multitude of varying velocities.

https://ravenworksdigital.com/about/


The Ravenscroft 275 plugin is a cooperation between the original piano company and VI Labs.

Link at VI Labs:
https://www.vilabsaudio.com/Ravenscroft-By-VI-Labs

The real thing:
http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275.php

[waltercruz]

I listened to the demos of Ravenscroft 275 and fint is amazing! But I was temporaly cured of the GAS by poverty.

[Ingonator]

I did a search for the term "Ravenscroft 275" at YouTube and there are quite a lot of videos, also for the real thing:


Very interesting are the videos of multiple professional piano players playing the sample library at NAMM.