One Synth Challenge #91: Tyrell N6 v3 by u-he (Taron Wins!)

[sfiks]

On the subject of length of track.

I grew up during the era of the 7 to 10 minute song

Autobahn (22 minutes)
Inna Gadda Da Vida (Sp) (Who remembers? LOL)
Court Of The Crimson King

And the list goes on and on.

If a song is great, I don't care how long it is. I'll listen to it. If it bores me to tears, I'll turn it off after 3 minutes, maybe sooner.

It's not the length. It's the quality.

And not how much time it took you to do it.

I know an average track of music after 40 years of composition.

wagtunes, I would very much appreciate if you could give me some details of your point of view on my piece "after watching Amphibian Man", which by your definition is below average (2 points)
Thank you.

Any response?

[Taron]

Well, I admit I don't understand what you mean with "viable counter" here, what I simply say is that one can have the patience to listen to a 10 minutes track for 10 times and still not being able to appreciate it. So saying that the lack of patience is the culprit is just a weak excuse.
IMHO, <wink>
There's no suggestions of "because their songs wouldn't have worked either way" in my words,
it seemed to me that you was saying that shorter tracks have greater chance to be appreciated,
hence saying to Slava and Cymatic that they must consider that not anyone has enough patience for longer tracks.

Noo, no, no, not at all. I wrote earlier already that it's about revealing the core of the music earlier, not having ambiguous intros for too long that don't give any strong enough hint about the great depth that is still to come!

When I was 16, I was invited to the music studio of Frank Farian, a rather famous producer. I don't think it was he himself, but someone there was willing to listen to my tapes back then. I got some great advice beside the offer to compose music for other bands, but I was a little upset about the very idea in my naive pride back then, hahaha, and simply never resumed contact...bizarre...but well, went to Hollywood with CG instead (tooting my own horn: )...anyhow, I was given a bunch of fantastic advice. The one advice that stuck the most was this: No Producer Ever Listens To Any Track That Doesn't Pick Up in the first 30 seconds...(though I think he said 15 seconds, hahaha, seems a little extreme to me, though).
Anyway, this is not to say that you can't make a song that has a 3 minute intro or that such a song would be bad. It only means that our very scenario here is very much turning every voter temporarily into a producer, who ends up experiencing the exact same challenge.

And, wag, don't you dare tell Slava that his song wouldn't have held up to your standards of quality, mate!
("Bei aller Liebe" as we say in Germany!)

Thus, no, the trouble is NOT the length of the song, but how soon does it provide enough motivation to keep someone listening and how quickly does it reveal its nature.
There are many things to consider, of course, but to me I believe that you want to know, whether you want to keep listening to it or not as soon as possible. It's complicated to cover all cases, of course, because under the right circumstances someone can build up an immediate suspense that keeps one glued long before the big reveal of the very heart of the song. In a way, though, the big suspense then already represents the heart of the song.
But if it's some unintelligible doodle (in bad cases) or loads of unexplained sound effects (regardless the quality) without a clear trajectory, then you'll lose a listener quickly.

Anyway, just my 2 cents!

[bibz1st]

I don't participate very often, simply not prolific enough but always keep an eye on the OSC.
Every month is the same at this point, some people feel hurt and dejected.
There is always going to be winners and losers, it is a competition after all, maybe it shouldn't be.
I guess at least it shows that people are passionate about their creations and that's a good thing.

[Taron]

With every "result" we go through another step of personal evolution and also collective evolution, of course. It's actually really brilliant that we get to discuss those results afterwards, hopefully fine-tuning the path of such evolution in a positive and useful way. That's why I really don't mind the "usual" aftermath!

[liqih]

Thus, no, the trouble is NOT the length of the song, but how soon does it provide enough motivation to keep someone listening and how quickly does it reveal its nature.
There are many things to consider, of course, but to me I believe that you want to know, whether you want to keep listening to it or not as soon as possible. It's complicated to cover all cases, of course, because under the right circumstances someone can build up an immediate suspense that keeps one glued long before the big reveal of the very heart of the song. In a way, though, the big suspense then already represents the heart of the song.
But if it's some unintelligible doodle (in bad cases) or loads of unexplained sound effects (regardless the quality) without a clear trajectory, then you'll lose a listener quickly.

Anyway, just my 2 cents!

OK, it seems to me you have now slighly changed your first observations and come closer to mine.
And as you say above "It's actually really brilliant that we get to discuss those results afterwards". <grin>

And I would add, let's beware of the word "quality".

[wagtunes]

On the subject of length of track.

I grew up during the era of the 7 to 10 minute song

Autobahn (22 minutes)
Inna Gadda Da Vida (Sp) (Who remembers? LOL)
Court Of The Crimson King

And the list goes on and on.

If a song is great, I don't care how long it is. I'll listen to it. If it bores me to tears, I'll turn it off after 3 minutes, maybe sooner.

It's not the length. It's the quality.

And not how much time it took you to do it.

I know an average track of music after 40 years of composition.

wagtunes, I would very much appreciate if you could give me some details of your point of view on my piece "after watching Amphibian Man", which by your definition is below average (2 points)
Thank you.

Any response?

I honestly do not remember your track. The whole contest is a blur to me when you have to listen to over 60 songs. Sorry.

[Taron]

OK, it seems to me you have now slighly changed your first observations and come closer to mine.
And as you say above "It's actually really brilliant that we get to discuss those results afterwards". <grin>

And I would add, let's beware of the word "quality".

Nope, have not changed it in the slightest little bit. But I'm glad we're scooting onto the same page!
When I hear or read the word "quality" in our OSC context, I immediately think of sound design and mix quality first, considering that this should transcend taste. I would add "care" into the observation, which includes balance and familiarity among the sounds, like they all live in the same world or relate to each other in some consistent way, serving a collective purpose. I don't even know how often I use the word "quality" unprovoked, but when I do, the above is what I mean by that.

[Guenon]

It's not the length. It's the quality.
And not how much time it took you to do it.

With time and dedication comes quality. Especially in a setting like this. The end results combine compositional ideas with technical knowhow, sound design, mixing and so on -- and as you need to do everything using one synth, usually some brute force and sweat is needed . Again, it's not just about the abstract composition by itself. Otherwise you could exclude the idea about the one synth completely.

I would bet that, on average, the people who constantly land near the top are more likely to dedicate more time to their entry than the ones landing near the bottom. Consider the sound design on display here, alone. Having the skills also means you need the time to explore the places those skills can take you.

In other words, something like this (which you value as a two point track)...

https://soundcloud.com/user-945948125/tannhauser-gate

...combines those different skills into a professional sounding whole, and achieves its setting and mood through perseverance; confidence in one's ability to create something like that, and then sitting down (repeatedly, haha) and doing it.

How do I know that's how it came about? If someone hands you a synth, like "hey, do a track just using this", there's a very slim chance of ^ that coming out of the speakers after just two hours. No matter who sits at the controls and what their skill level is. Listening to the top tracks, this could be said about all of them.

In contrast, something like this (which you seem to insist is a better entry than the above -- the thing that made me type this post)...

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... ing-osc-91

...is a cheerful tune you did in two hours, and as such it honestly is nice. The end result also sounds like that, someone banging out a nice little tune in one sitting, lightheartedly showcasing their musical chops, caring more about the idea than the result as a whole. That's jolly good (and did I say it IS a nice tune for what it is? ), but I think the resulting "people just don't realize how this track is objectively better!" drama is SO out of place/proportion/perspective/whatever.

My lack of skills made it pointless to spend any more time on it than I did. I had fun doing it. I like it. In fact, I think it's kind of catchy. And as far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters to me.

So, as you agree, there's a good point in spending more time if you have the skills.

You most definitely have serious skills to put to use for more than a couple of hours worth, you know . That's what I was getting at earlier. I mean, if the above is the premise you base your final track on, from the get go, it's only probable that so many tracks, made by others, end up more well-rounded. After such a decision, it's best not to feel bad about it: chalk it up to "oh well, just banged out a tune in a couple of hours, no surprise it lands there, no biggie." And realize your musicianship and your being and your best output is not defined by something you made with one synth in one quick sitting.

[wagtunes]

but now I'm also sure it's not worth it to discuss it any further

So much for not wanting to discuss this any further. I'm not even sure what you want me to say. You're right, I'm wrong. Does that work for you?

Here's the bottom line. I've been writing music for almost 40 years, maybe longer than 90% of the people in this forum have even been on this planet. I've never written music for others. I've always written for myself. If I'm happy with the work I've done, that's all that matters. If I ever get a compliment, which I can probably count on two hands over the course of all these years, it's gravy and nothing more.

Know what I do when I'm driving in the car? I plug in my MP3 player and listen to my music. I imagine some underground station is playing it. Yeah, I live in my own little fantasy world and I'm perfectly fine with that. The OSC is just a reminder that people don't think as much of my stuff as I do. As somebody who wants to be happy as much as possible, I don't need it. And it isn't even about winning. Hell, I'd be happy finishing middle of the pack month after month. But my constant finishes near the bottom do not make me happy. So I'm removing that element from my life. That's the one thing you don't know about me. When I don't like something, if I can get rid of it, I get rid of it. It's that simple.

As for giving that track a 2, I don't remember it. I forget tracks right after I finish listening to them. If I gave it a 2, most likely I didn't like it musically at all. Either that or after 3 minutes (It is a long track) I got tired of listening. If you want, I can listen to it again but I don't expect my opinion to change. That's not to say the track is bad. It's just my opinion. Even the top scorers here have some bad scores. Not everybody is going to like your music. And I understand that. But when you consistently score near the bottom, eventually you reach the point where you've had enough.

I can't make it anymore clear than that.

[wagtunes]

Okay, I "tried" to listen to that track again. To me, it's just a bunch of noises. Yeah, it's creative sound design but musically it does nothing for me. After 1:30 I was done. I have no idea what's coming next but a minute and a half of sound FX is more than enough for me.

Sorry, but I grew up in the era of "Don't bore us, get to the chorus." Yes, I place more importance on musical composition than showing off what bleeps and bloops you can do with a synth. And that's my prerogative to rank entries based on that criteria. That's why I've scored tracks high that maybe didn't have the best sound design but were musically excellent. Again, I have the right to do that.

It's all taste. And yes, I have to remember that. But obviously, my taste in what I write doesn't jive with the taste of the members of this forum. So it's time for me to move on.

I never throw good money after bad.

[Guenon]

So much for not wanting to discuss this any further.

It seems I, too, developed a slight penchant for comebacks there?

But my constant finishes near the bottom do not make me happy. So I'm removing that element from my life.

I remember reading this exact thing a while ago!

And now, as I was saying, if you deliberately use all but two hours to do your track from start to finish, it shouldn't surprise you if it reflects badly on its whole, compared to a lot of the stuff here. And I'm sure you are capable of much more (really, really sure), if you are so inclined. So you shouldn't be so upset when this happens and you didn't really even try.

That's about it. You're cool, and I like the way you think, musically, and yep, I should have stayed quiet. Then I noticed the Cymatic thing and... : mindboggle :

I place more importance on musical composition than showing off what bleeps and bloops you can do with a synth. And that's my prerogative to rank entries based on that criteria. That's why I've scored tracks high that maybe didn't have the best sound design but were musically excellent. Again, I have the right to do that.

I'm guessing the disregard for sound design etc, latching only onto the raw compositional idea -- inasmuch as even refusing to listen to the CymaticCreation entry further than the (staggeringly skillful and impressive, imo) mood setter opening, or doing away with polishing a finished production out of your own entry after the musical idea is there -- is at the core of much of your troubles here. I imagine I can't be the only one who has tried discussing this with you, but I can see there's enormous resistance over this idea, so it's really not something to discuss.

Well, no worries.

[zippy731]

Congrats Taron and the other top finishers! Impressive as always, and inspiring to know what's possible with these synths.

Appreciate everyone listening and commenting. Helps me improve, and I enjoy the community here.

Peace,
Z

[574X]

oh sweet, Taron won! Well deserved

I'm happy to have participated. I learned a lot.

Thanks to all the people who rated me well. I'm really glad you enjoyed my song and thanks for listening.

[ontrackp]

But, similar to cymatics "troubles", it's the lack of patience that makes those songs difficult for people to immediately appreciate. I mean, ontrack's comment on my song was right away: "Great piece, but it's way too long, you should edit it down". I thought that was peculiar, since there was virtually no part that could've been any shorter, meaning that he wanted me to cut off entire sections, like saying: This dog is too big, cut off the legs, please!
So, yeah, patience is a bitter enemy.

As long as you invoked my comment, I feel obligated to reply. With all due respect for your composing and producing skills, which are considerable, I simply meant that for the OSC, which is a competition with 60 songs to listen to, a 9 minute song uses up too much listening time for me. It's not impatience, I just have a limited amount of time and it's hard to spend twice as long on a piece that if parts were cut out, would still work just as well for me. A well crafted 4 minute song is more practical for me for me to grade. As for editing, I have to reject your dog with no legs metaphor. In the professional creative world we are almost always up against time parameters and have to make choices of what stays in, and what has to be left out. The parts that are left out don't make the piece less than it should be, we just have a time parameter and have to make our song or tv show or film work within that time. It's the challenge of being a professional creative vs a fine artist. We work within parameters. Of course, the OSC does not have a time parameter so any length is fair game, and if you feel that your piece does not have creative integrity unless it's 9 min long, that's ok. I just find it hard to appreciate that length song when I have limited time for listening.

As long as I'm on a rant -- Wagtunes -- sorry... but in this competition anybody who spends just 2 hours on a piece should expect to end up close to the bottom. You should not expect an average or above average score for below average effort. Children learn that in elementary school. There are many people who take the OSC seriously and spend many, many hours developing their piece, creating sounds and doing detailed production. It's the nature of this competition. We all work at our own pace and it would be interesting to know how much time people spend on their pieces, but I'm pretty confident that nobody in the top 50% spends only 2 hours on a song. I don't enter to finish in the top 10, partially because I know I don't have the time to make my productions as fine and detailed as the winners, I do it for the creative challenge and the fun of getting peer feedback, also I learn new things every month just by listening to all the entries, which is the most valuable take-away.

[Taron]

oh sweet, Taron won! Well deserved

Thanks, 574X!

As long as you invoked my comment, I feel obligated to reply. With all due respect for your composing and producing skills, which are considerable, I simply meant that for the OSC, which is a competition with 60 songs to listen to, a 9 minute song uses up too much listening time for me. It's not impatience, I just have a limited amount of time and it's hard to spend twice as long on a piece that if parts were cut out, would still work just as well for me. A well crafted 4 minute song is more practical for me for me to grade. As for editing, I have to reject your dog with no legs metaphor. In the professional creative world we are almost always up against time parameters and have to make choices of what stays in, and what has to be left out. The parts that are left out don't make the piece less than it should be, we just have a time parameter and have to make our song or tv show or film work within that time. It's the challenge of being a professional creative vs a fine artist. We work within parameters. Of course, the OSC does not have a time parameter so any length is fair game, and if you feel that your piece does not have creative integrity unless it's 9 min long, that's ok. I just find it hard to appreciate that length song when I have limited time for listening.

There are 15 days to go through all the songs, 65 in this case. You could listen to 4 songs a day, taking an average of 15 minutes. What ever your job is...consider making some changes!
In the professional world, they hold satanic rituals and sacrifice babies...that's not my speed either!

(Danged, I wanted to just leave it at that, but I can't...)
Dear ontrack, not only do I normally agree with you, I could even dig up my own posts from two or three OSCs where I had the same complaint, though it was about 9+ min pieces which had 10 bars essentially looping for that length of time. So one time the muse grabs me and I go for a longer piece, stuffed with content, all of which are different expressions through this fantastic synth and I'm being loving and caring about each moment, essentially allowing this to be finer art, and you think you can impose a cookie-cutter entertainment-slave rule mindlessly on it as if you had any right or reason to dictate policy. I would suggest to get over yourself, but really, I much rather suggest to activate both hemispheres of your brains and analyze your life and see where else you forgot to apply any sense!
Other than that, I value your respect very much and I'm happy you did get over yourself enough to listen despite your inner alarm bells. Luckily you make nice tracks, too!