Modal Harmony vid series

[Chandlerhimself]

I don't understand the argument here. I'm talking about music theory. The people complaining seem to be talking about music history. The history is important for historians, but my guess is most people aren't interested in that type of music. Of course some are and the people complaining in this thread are free to make a video about it. I'd be interested in watching it. However I think it is important to realize that music theories are "theories" not law. Most theories are used to make a specific type of music and by following the things presented in those theories your music will sound like that genre. If you don't like that type of music don't use the theory.

I'm starting to think some people here just like arguing and knocking down straw men. If you don't believe something exists, that's up to you. People can research things themselves. If you don't like jazz, fusion, pop, rock, etc made in the last 60 years then by all means don't use the theory. There are millions of people who use it to help them make music that people enjoy, so IMO it works. If you don't enjoy it or have some personal problem with the method that's your own problem.

[jancivil]

I don't understand the argument here.

Well, that's abundantly clear. Ya don't evidence much understanding outside your own little trip, really. You stand to learn here, but no.

[Chandlerhimself]

I don't understand the argument here.

Well, that's abundantly clear. Ya don't evidence much understanding outside your own little trip, really. You stand to learn here, but no.

It seems you don't understand either. My post wasn't referring to you. Your last post repeated my argument and now you're arguing with me over nothing.

[jancivil]

This'll be the one post I'll actually direct at you, Chandler yourself. The event of your 'vid series' held no interest for me at all, and all I wanted to do was clarify muddied waters in my post today.

So I did finally see the video in the original post.
'bout what I'd imagined.

Ok. Such as yer 'Holdsworth chords... also evoke modes': No. Chords in themselves do not, cannot evoke modes. For any mode to be itself, as a mode, its 'tonic' as it were or HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. You tossed some non-tertial form out there, then quartal forms both of which could have anything be I, and these especially just kinda float, who knows what's happening. But NB., they could describe a scale or maybe even a mode, and decorate it via these planed stacks, but that scale form is OBVIOUSLY first, primary and not secondary to some vertical objects. But still we haven't seen, we hear no mode.

That vid was just a lot of word salad. Yer just winging it trying to float some crap like no one will ever be the wiser.

Yer tryina float A GIMMICK, son. So transparent, & an insult to all our intelligence. Try this game elsewhere, ya dig?

[Chandlerhimself]

This'll be the one post I'll actually direct at you, Chandler yourself. The event of your 'vid series' held no interest for me at all, and all I wanted to do was clarify muddied waters in my post today.

So I did finally see the video in the original post.
'bout what I'd imagined.

Ok. Such as yer 'Holdsworth chords... also evoke modes': No. Chords in themselves do not, cannot evoke modes. For any mode to be itself, as a mode, its 'tonic' as it were or HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. You tossed some non-tertial form out there, then quartal forms both of which could have anything be I, and these especially just kinda float, who knows what's happening. But NB., they could describe a scale or maybe even a mode, and decorate it via these planed stacks, but that scale form is OBVIOUSLY first, primary and not secondary to some vertical objects. But still we haven't seen, we hear no mode.

That vid was just a lot of word salad. Yer just winging it trying to float some crap like no one will ever be the wiser.

Yer tryina float A GIMMICK, son. So transparent, & an insult to all our intelligence. Try this game elsewhere, ya dig?

You obviously don't understand modal harmony or even what I said in the video but that is "'bout what I'd imagined" I would have thought most people would understand that a bass would be playing the tonic note, which I stated in the videos. I already said "HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. ", but of course your listening comprehension along with your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I would try to enlighten you about quartal vocings and their role in modern modal harmony, but you obviously don't care or can't understand. You seem intent on arguing a straw man or just can't understand what I'm saying so you make it up instead. I don't think there is a need to argue about things I agree with and have stated before, and there is no need to try to explain something to someone who doesn't want to learn, so let's leave it at that.

[woggle]

This'll be the one post I'll actually direct at you, Chandler yourself. The event of your 'vid series' held no interest for me at all, and all I wanted to do was clarify muddied waters in my post today.

So I did finally see the video in the original post.
'bout what I'd imagined.

Ok. Such as yer 'Holdsworth chords... also evoke modes': No. Chords in themselves do not, cannot evoke modes. For any mode to be itself, as a mode, its 'tonic' as it were or HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. You tossed some non-tertial form out there, then quartal forms both of which could have anything be I, and these especially just kinda float, who knows what's happening. But NB., they could describe a scale or maybe even a mode, and decorate it via these planed stacks, but that scale form is OBVIOUSLY first, primary and not secondary to some vertical objects. But still we haven't seen, we hear no mode.

That vid was just a lot of word salad. Yer just winging it trying to float some crap like no one will ever be the wiser.

Yer tryina float A GIMMICK, son. So transparent, & an insult to all our intelligence. Try this game elsewhere, ya dig?

You obviously don't understand modal harmony or even what I said in the video but that is "'bout what I'd imagined" I would have thought most people would understand that a bass would be playing the tonic note, which I stated in the videos. I already said "HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. ", but of course your listening comprehension along with your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I would try to enlighten you about quartal vocings and their role in modern modal harmony, but you obviously don't care or can't understand. You seem intent on arguing a straw man or just can't understand what I'm saying so you make it up instead. I don't think there is a need to argue about things I agree with and have stated before, and there is no need to try to explain something to someone who doesn't want to learn, so let's leave it at that.

modal harmony is of course whatever you and like minded people decide it is eg https://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q144.html

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music. There is a post somewhere on KVR about this with particular reference to Turkish music and the exceptional musician Ross Daly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Daly Daly is pretty much whatever you would call a national treasure that is really a world treasure

there is a nice reddit discussion here that shows a range of views https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/co ... r_dummies/

[fmr]

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music.

WHY? To me, the old "church modes" sound great. And there are a lot of other modes, that are also as western as those ones. First of all, you have to understand what a "mode" is, and what makes it "a mode". Clue: It's NOT the "D to D" dorian, or the "E to E" phrygian.

[woggle]

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music.

WHY?

because equal temperament

[fmr]

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music.

WHY?

because equal temperament

BOLLOCKS. Temperament has nothing to do with modes. Western tonal music used other temperaments until the XVIII century. By your logic, it was more interesting then? And modal music made here after that is not interesting?

[woggle]

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music.

WHY?

because equal temperament

BOLLOCKS. Temperament has nothing to do with modes. Western tonal music used other temperaments until the WVIII century. By your logic, it was more interesting then?

great point

[Chandlerhimself]

This'll be the one post I'll actually direct at you, Chandler yourself. The event of your 'vid series' held no interest for me at all, and all I wanted to do was clarify muddied waters in my post today.

So I did finally see the video in the original post.
'bout what I'd imagined.

Ok. Such as yer 'Holdsworth chords... also evoke modes': No. Chords in themselves do not, cannot evoke modes. For any mode to be itself, as a mode, its 'tonic' as it were or HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. You tossed some non-tertial form out there, then quartal forms both of which could have anything be I, and these especially just kinda float, who knows what's happening. But NB., they could describe a scale or maybe even a mode, and decorate it via these planed stacks, but that scale form is OBVIOUSLY first, primary and not secondary to some vertical objects. But still we haven't seen, we hear no mode.

That vid was just a lot of word salad. Yer just winging it trying to float some crap like no one will ever be the wiser.

Yer tryina float A GIMMICK, son. So transparent, & an insult to all our intelligence. Try this game elsewhere, ya dig?

You obviously don't understand modal harmony or even what I said in the video but that is "'bout what I'd imagined" I would have thought most people would understand that a bass would be playing the tonic note, which I stated in the videos. I already said "HOME must_be established beyond all doubt. ", but of course your listening comprehension along with your reading comprehension seems to be lacking. I would try to enlighten you about quartal vocings and their role in modern modal harmony, but you obviously don't care or can't understand. You seem intent on arguing a straw man or just can't understand what I'm saying so you make it up instead. I don't think there is a need to argue about things I agree with and have stated before, and there is no need to try to explain something to someone who doesn't want to learn, so let's leave it at that.

modal harmony is of course whatever you and like minded people decide it is eg https://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q144.html

and others may have a different view. Such is language. Modes become more interesting when you move out of the modern western tuning and into the sorts of tunings from Indian and Arabic music. There is a post somewhere on KVR about this with particular reference to Turkish music and the exceptional musician Ross Daly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Daly Daly is pretty much whatever you would call a national treasure that is really a world treasure

there is a nice reddit discussion here that shows a range of views https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/co ... r_dummies/

Of course people may call things different things and of course that is fine. I was shocked when someone from the UK told me what "fanny" means over there. I don't think it is productive to argue over names and semantics because that has nothing to do with actual music. Anyway, Ross Daly is very cool. I really enjoy his music, his playing has tons of technique and emotion and he seems to be able to squeeze a wide variety of tones out of his instrument. Speaking of which, what is the name of that instrument?

I really didn't my video was that controversial considering I've seen the same thing in quite a few textbooks, but I guess you learn something new everyday.

[woggle]

Of course people may call things different things and of course that is fine. I was shocked when someone from the UK told me what "fanny" means over there. I don't think it is productive to argue over names and semantics because that has nothing to do with actual music. Anyway, Ross Daly is very cool. I really enjoy his music, his playing has tons of technique and emotion and he seems to be able to squeeze a wide variety of tones out of his instrument. Speaking of which, what is the name of that instrument?

I really didn't my video was that controversial considering I've seen the same thing in quite a few textbooks, but I guess you learn something new everyday.

Your vid shouldn't be controversial, it was pretty obvious what you were talking about. Daly plays the Cretan lyra

[zethus909]

Wowie zowie

1st, the dichotomy between looking at 'theory' and yer creativity is unnecessary, bogus and anti-useful. You're just being willfully ignorant. & No One should advise you to 'create' following a 'music theory' book in your hand, and no one here has.

Then, I should reinforce that 'modal harmony' has not heretofore been shown to be meaningful, really. We're merely talking of making triads off of a set of single notes; now the usefulness of really a language which suits the major/minor tonal (dominant/tonic) paradigm won't travel to modal use at all because the latter is antithetical to the former. Diff lingo. IE: V to I isn't it. Dominant in C major, eg., G B (D) F, B F D not only fails to enhance eg., D Dorian or E Phrygian particularly, by definition it creates a problem: the tension we'll all experience, as if resolution to Tonic, C, is imminent.

Chords in modal usage should enhance the experience of the mode, if not, lose 'em. Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar ie., Inca Roads vamp is D, C. D Mixolydian. The theme ultimately (@7:45) is MI FA SOL, MI FA SOL, MI fa,mi RE, DO ^DO SOL... etc.


Less is More. If yer tryina be cute with a whole lotta chords your thrust is antithetical to modal music PERIOD.

i actually havent even ever read the first post of this thread or watched any video(i think i will watch it though now, since its so controversial, and i will judge whether it is accurate)...i am not arguing about whatever u guys are, im just saying what i know, about modal harmony.

modal harmony simply means that you are creating your "stacks" or whatever u want to call it, using the classical MODEs...modes based off C major

..TONAL harmony, means you are now changing the "Mother" "MODE"...arbritraliy....it's not like an official MODE....it's just easier to explain it using that word

...you are changin it, so that your MELODY will be pleasing, and jazzy..for instance....

however, that TONAL harmony that CAN be derived from this different set of "modes".....

is not as musical CLEAN/effective....because by its very nature, it's not being used to create harmony...it's being used to create MELODY...

im not using capitals to be a dick, i am just too lazy to use the italic thing, all caps are actually italic, or maybe bold

so again, with respect to the vid of this thread topic, i have never watched it...i dont really care if i ever watch...it's not important to me...i understand what i am saying, and it makes theoretical sense to me, and obviously at least some other people, like the guy i found that jazz minor info on....so yea. carry on with your arguments about what modes are or aren't.

i greatly value the importance of getting music theory stuff right, its important to always make sure we are always on the same page..and all are accurately describing certain principles.

however like i said, its all DESCRIPTIVE...so it rreally almost completely useless, to the actual purpose of creating good music. in fact, mostly just th emost boring and contrived genre specific music is created when people are overly concerned with applying certain principles BEFORE they even touch a string or key.

[zethus909]

after i watch the this majorly CONTROVERSIAL video, i will most likely end up concluding whatever jancivil has concluded(idk what he has concluded at this point however, or what anyone has because i havent been following this entire thread whatsoever). because i trust that he knows music theory with great depth and accuracy. and also because it isnt a matter of perception or subjectivity. it is either correct, or it is not. at least i hope its as cut and dry as that. and not some overly esoteric thing that doesnt really even actually have a right or wrong prognosis

[fmr]

modal harmony simply means that you are creating your "stacks" or whatever u want to call it, using the classical MODEs...modes based off C major

No they are not.

...TONAL harmony, means you are now changing the "Mother" "MODE"...arbritraliy....it's not like an official MODE....it's just easier to explain it using that word

...you are changin it, so that your MELODY will be pleasing, and jazzy..for instance....

So, modes ara "jazzy"? Or what?

however, that TONAL harmony that CAN be derived from this different set of "modes".....

is not as musical CLEAN/effective....because by its very nature, it's not being used to create harmony...it's being used to create MELODY...

i greatly value the importance of getting music theory stuff right, its important to always make sure we are always on the same page..and all are accurately describing certain principles.

That's why you shouldn't even try.

however like i said, its all DESCRIPTIVE...so it rreally almost completely useless, to the actual purpose of creating good music. in fact, mostly just th emost boring and contrived genre specific music is created when people are overly concerned with applying certain principles BEFORE they even touch a string or key.

If it is useless, why do you come up with this "mambo-jambo"? Play whatever you like, and keep it that way. Because, when you try to explain it theoretically, it's pathetic.