Fantastic scale & chord site

[JeanPhi]

I see. Thanks

[JeanPhi]

Is there a way to alternate letters in a diminished chord (only 3 semi-tones intervals)
For example, a Db dim. I will have Db Fb and A??

[JumpingJackFlash]

Is there a way to alternate letters in a diminished chord (only 3 semi-tones intervals)
For example, a Db dim. I will have Db Fb and A??

With diminished triads, there should be a minor third (not an augmented second) between each note. So starting on Db, you'd then have Fb and Abb (double-flat).

However, diminished triads are found diatonically on the seventh degree of the major scale; it might be helpful to think of them in those terms. As such, a diminished triad on Db would be relatively rare. More common would be one on C# (as the seventh chord in D major for example, or the second chord in B minor): C#-E-G.

When it comes to the diminished seventh however, that is often found with one or more notes notated enharmonically. I would ensure the basics are right before you worry about this though.

[Sandy]

Is there a way to alternate letters in a diminished chord (only 3 semi-tones intervals)
For example, a Db dim. I will have Db Fb and A??

Alternate? Do you mean "simplify" all the notes to become Db E and G? Well, strictly speaking, no.

I say, serve it up correctly and let the learners learn the right way.

It's only a double flat. It's not Zika, for Christ's sake. People act like it's gonna kill their babies.

[.jon]

Because you don't grasp the point of proper spelling doesn't mean there is no point. If a person wants to become conversant with keys, just for starters, one will want to have a good basis. You're arguing the newb remain in the dark about the very bases for the language of music.

Being "conversant with keys" is not what a chord reference site is about. Your worlds of orchestral instruments are totally and completely irrelevant when all one wants is to quickly see how to play a certain chord on the keys. It's astonishing that you don't understand this simple fact.

You're one of those who have learned music theory, but lack the capacity to actually understand it. Don't worry, music world is full of people like you, simpletons with their heads stuck up their arse. Uneducated and too rusted in their ways to understand that music, like any language, is in constant change.

[JumpingJackFlash]

You're one of those who have learned music theory, but lack the capacity to actually understand it. Don't worry, music world is full of people like you, simpletons with their heads stuck up their arse. Uneducated and too rusted in their ways to understand that music, like any language, is in constant change.

Wow.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but this is just shocking. I've tried to be as nice as possible, but you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and, not only that, but you actually have the arrogance to think that spreading your ignorance and confusing others is a good idea.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to come here for no other reason that to defend and propagate their ignorance. Instead of actually listening to people who obviously understand the subject matter a lot better, they stick their fingers in their ears and continue to spout rubbish.

You can justify your own ignorance anyway you choose, it doesn't matter. What does matter however is when you start harming others by giving them incorrect information.

There's some really basic errors here, like spelling B major with a Eb instead of a D#. This is not one of those obscure things that only exists in theory books, this is a common chord that has cropped up in all kinds of music for centuries. Spell it however you like in your own home, but there is absolutely no excuse for presenting this as a fact to others. It is wrong. It doesn't matter how you try and justify it, wrong is wrong. It's not going to change just because you think it should.

So please, if you're not willing to learn, at least do people a favour and stop taking on an unwarranted attitude of authority. Leave the teaching to the teachers.

You might as well tell children that a cat is a dog

[MadBrain]

Irl the correct spelling for notes in a dim chord is normally that it's a 7b9 chord without the root. For instance, if you see Ddim7, this is Bb7b9 without the Bb, which gives you D F Ab Cb. (C#dim is 100 times more common than Dbdim because of this, since everybody is going to write A7b9 instead of Bbb7b9)

Some Jazz arrangers will simplify the spelling of dim7 chords occasionally - usually when the accidentals get really out of hand and it makes the chord harder to read with the correct spelling than with a wrong but simpler enharmonic spelling, like D F Ab B in the case of Ddim7 (especially if the song is in a key that doesn't have lots of flats, like say C major). This is mostly in cases where it avoids double flats/sharps or Fb/Cb/E#/B#.

[stringtapper]

There's absolutely nothing wrong in 2016 with spelling the chords with their actual note names

That is what I am advocating; using their actual note names.

... instead of retarded imaginary names based on just intonation, practically non-existent in modern music or instruments.

Just intonation (or otherwise) has nothing to do with it.
As for "imaginary names", I have no idea what you're talking about. Gb is just as "real" as F#. - Did you "learn" from the Internet by any chance?

Look, at the end of the day, a spelling is either right or it's wrong. Spelling it wrong is fine if it's just you doing it for your own purposes, but it's not acceptable when used as a tool to teach others.

And now that the error has been pointed out, if you persist, you're not only going to cause confusion, you're doing it deliberately. That actually suggests malice to me.

Sorry if that offends, but I'm thinking of the innocent and naive young student here, stumbling across a site like this and following what it says. Might help in the short term, but a few years down the road when they want to work with other musicians, or maybe even sit an exam of some sort, they're going to be handicapped because they have learnt incorrectly. And this makes learning it properly much harder than it otherwise would have been. A lot of students have come to me full of rubbish they've picked up from the Internet; trying to sort it out and correct all their misunderstandings makes things needlessly complicated. Before they can learn any more they have to first go back and re-learn things they thought they had mastered. This can even create resentment and put them off learning further.

I respect your goal, and I'm sure your intentions are good. I'll even help if you're willing to listen, but there is absolutely no excuse in 2016 to harm people by presenting incorrect information as fact.
Spelling B major with a D# (for example) is not hard; just get it right.

Would you send your (hypothetical) child to an English teacher who didn't even know the difference between "they're", "there" and "their"? (Or who claimed there wasn't any need to bother with correct spelling in this day and age?) I certainly wouldn't.

I've run into you on the internet a few times over the years, JJF, and I have to say to this: AMEN.

This is one of those negative aspects of the internet that has popped up, where people who don't know what they're talking about jump on the bandwagon of "tutorial culture" and end up spreading misinformation. There was a big discussion about it on the SMT list a few years ago about how it's almost impossible to create Wiki pages on music theory that have been cultivated and reviewed by professional music theorists because it's a free-for-all and anyone with a keyboard and an ego who thinks they have it all figured out can simply override anything an expert tries to add or change.

It's Dunning-Kruger in overdrive. I try to fight it and inform people on internet forums whenever I can, but damn it seems like a losing battle. Guido help us…

[jancivil]

Because you don't grasp the point of proper spelling doesn't mean there is no point. If a person wants to become conversant with keys, just for starters, one will want to have a good basis. You're arguing the newb remain in the dark about the very bases for the language of music.

Being "conversant with keys" is not what a chord reference site is about. Your worlds of orchestral instruments are totally and completely irrelevant when all one wants is to quickly see how to play a certain chord on the keys. It's astonishing that you don't understand this simple fact.

You're one of those who have learned music theory, but lack the capacity to actually understand it. Don't worry, music world is full of people like you, simpletons with their heads stuck up their arse. Uneducated and too rusted in their ways to understand that music, like any language, is in constant change.

You can kiss my ass.

You don't know what a reference is, for that matter.

[stringtapper]

But I don't think displaying b# (and not c) for a c# 7th is a good pedagogical idea. Do you think it is?

[jancivil]

Because you don't grasp the point of proper spelling doesn't mean there is no point. If a person wants to become conversant with keys, just for starters, one will want to have a good basis. You're arguing the newb remain in the dark about the very bases for the language of music.

Being "conversant with keys" is not what a chord reference site is about. Your worlds of orchestral instruments are totally and completely irrelevant when all one wants is to quickly see how to play a certain chord on the keys. It's astonishing that you don't understand this simple fact.

Pray tell, what exactly is a 'chord reference site' about? This site is demonstrably no reference. The developer is darting about hoping to address problems pointed out by a number of us. Basic problems.
What is this hypothetical user of this site doing with chords?

You asserted that the spellings of chords/confer keys only had to do with 'just intonation'. No, people strictly from the piano can has coherent, competent materials such as triads actually built with thirds not to mention the musicians on fretless string instruments or wind instruments etc. I pointed out that orchestral musicians intone with more nuance whenever possible specifically to address your 'it's only relevant to JI' (a clueless shot out of your obviously half-baked internet understanding of JI.).

When all one wants is to quickly see how to play a certain chord on the keyboard... it's astonishing you don't understand this simple fact

I don't? No, it's not news to me that there are many people, particularly in the Producer realm, that do not know from chords and that will gravitate to a crutch such as software provides for them today.
This is about as lame as discourse gets, this level of desperation trying to seem superior to an individual just because they didn't buy your bullshit.

I also noticed you getting snarky on another board w. people that prefer better quality filters on their analog synth emulation or what-have-you. You're making arguments that should support the incurious (and lazy) among us, who have no use for mastery... such as yourself one supposes. Of course the argumentation is weak and lazy as well.

[jancivil]

Irl the correct spelling for notes in a dim chord is normally that it's a 7b9 chord without the root. For instance, if you see Ddim7, this is Bb7b9 without the Bb, which gives you D F Ab Cb. (C#dim is 100 times more common than Dbdim because of this, since everybody is going to write A7b9 instead of Bbb7b9)

in real life? D diminished is D F Ab per se. vii of Eb major, ii of C minor. So with a Bb under it it's the same spelling. Who knew. Dominant of Eb either way, also too. I mean JJF has already explained the rarity of Db diminished, jazz is not actually any new wrinkle to the concept.

Some Jazz arrangers will simplify the spelling of dim7 chords occasionally - usually when the accidentals get really out of hand
[EG:] D F Ab B in the case of Ddim7

Even more simply: D F Ab B is B D F Ab. '1st inversion' if anybody asks.

Sorry, I'm ignoring that D could be the functional true root. I don't know why Cb (or Fb, B#, E#) is a problem, though.
My point is that diminished 7th chords get to be interchangeable. But yeah, a jazz arranger can be less anal.

[jancivil]

"music, like any language, is in constant change."

Sure, just like we see people that type 'to' for the number two, we see people who don't quite grasp the language using it more and more; possibly because the internet affords the opportunity to both see more of people's lameness and for more lame people to type at other people (or, to think it's time to make some beats). Or even to toss moronic yet pompous declarations at those who happened to notice the disintegration of language usage happening right before their eyes.

In this case, no, the cluelessness of C# F G# C for a C#maj7 is not the language evolving, it's that people like you are lazy. (When all one wants is to see a chord on the keyboard? These are all tertial constructions, the knowledge is really basic.) Who are you kidding with a word like 'capacity'? Worry about yours, here is a simple matter of following the alphabet. C D E F G A B; C# D# E# F# G# A# B#. Thirds: C# E# G# B#.

[anxiousmofo]

Wow, this jancivil person is a pompous and nasty creature.

[jancivil]

So, you're good with this:

You're one of those who have learned music theory, but lack the capacity to actually understand it. Don't worry, music world is full of people like you, simpletons with their heads stuck up their arse.

Which is what I reacted to. Well, there was more, if you want to read the thread.

What did I say that was pompous? (what I said is fair game, but I'm not, nor should I be, the topic of this thread.) I don't think that's a very thoughtful diss, you could go more for accuracy if you want to hit a nerve.

'Pompous' is like, I dunno, 'grandiose', and I found dot jon's whole trip irritatingly grand. I know what I'm talking about here so I can't really be pretentious, affected, etc here ...
or sententious, which would all apply to dot jon's efforts here and maybe you too.
Maybe I'm 'imperious'? Maybe you want to just call me an asshole. You seem judgmental to me, but who'm I to judge?


Nice entrance btw.

PS: What's *nasty* here is someone that comes into a thread on the 'net to attack a person. If there's something I said that offends you, hurts you? Address that, here's a forum.
You don't know the person, what they are in actual life, but it suits you to say "this is a nasty person". Would you go into a bar and in the middle of a heated argument and after hearing the last half a minute decide to zero in on one of those involved? Good luck! I don't know how you behave except this, but I know I would NEVER come in and do this shit you done. I'm kinder to people as a whole than that. I won't let you or "dot jon" steamroll over me tho', believe that.