Modal Harmony vid series

[fmr]

In jazz theory we call any seventh chord with a major 3rd, a perfect 5th, and a minor seventh a "Dominant Seventh Chord." That designation makes no assumption about function at all, it just tells you how to spell the chord.

Yes, it's "wrong" compared to the definition of "dominant" in functional classical harmony, but it's simply the way it evolved and you're going to be hard pressed to find anyone playing or studying jazz who wouldn't read the label "C7" as a chord spelled C-E-G-Bb. It's just the way it is.

Well, in minor mode, if you have a 7 over the VII degree (not altered), you have a major third and a minor seventh. Yet, it isn't a dominant seventh (unless the composers treats it that way), and we see nowehere this chord named that way. Also, the 7 over the ii degree is a leading-tone seventh, but again, it isn't called that way. Yet anybody knows it sounds the same. But in figured bass, you would have a 7, just like that, nothing else added. A 7 is a 7, plain and simple. Whatever sauce you put in there depends on the root note and the tonality you're in, but it's always a 7, no matter what. A V7 is a function, therefore, calling a seventh chord a "dominant 7" when it is not "dominating" anything, is another musused concept, and another thing contributiong, unnecessarily, to difficulting what is simple to begin with.

[stringtapper]

Chord labels in jazz are indeed self-contained because the intervals and alterations are only in relation to the root of the chord, not in relation to a key. This is because jazz music moves through different key areas all the time. If the notation were to relate to keys it would be even more complicated than it is now. Abstracting the symbols to relate only to the chord roots give you a WYSIWYG method for identifying chords, without any considerations of function inherent to the notation (although the symbols can reveal functions when compared to the chord symbols around them).

[jancivil]

What "we"? I don't do that. I'm really sure my writing today is clear! I have NOT said that C7 is not C E G Bb!! I've gone through this FFS. I told you that I had that everyday experience of seeing '7' and it's a m7. I knew what to do with "G7" on the guitar as a child, before I was a musician.
I said that nobody will actually need to mentally go through the word 'dominant' to know that Dm7 is what it is.

This is like that stupid argument where you had to browbeat me into admitting 12/8 is per se compound time. You tell me shit I totally know/I have further nuance/but nooooooo. It's obtuse (and rude).

[stringtapper]

I get the aversion to calling the chord a dominant seventh. But this is a universal convention in jazz at this point, so it's not going anywhere.

[fmr]

Chord labels in jazz are indeed self-contained because the intervals and alterations are only in relation to the root of the chord, not in relation to a key. This is because jazz music moves through different key areas all the time. If the notation were to relate to keys it would be even more complicated than it is now. Abstracting the symbols to relate only to the chord roots give you a WYSIWYG method for identifying chords, without any considerations of function inherent to the notation (although the symbols can reveal functions when compared to the chord symbols around them).

Well, in that Esus b9 it isn't. It's in C Major, and it's not going anywhere, apparently. And why b9 if the note that is the 9 has no alterations?

[stringtapper]

What we? I don't. I'm really sure my writing today is clear! I have NOT said that C7 is not C E G Bb!! I've gone through this FFS. I told you that I had that everyday experience of seeing '7' and it's a m7. I knew what to do with "G7" on the guitar as a child, before I was a musician.
I said that nobody will actually need to mentally go through the word 'dominant' to know that Dm7 is what it is.

This is like that stupid argument where you had to beat me into admitting 12/8 is per se compound time. You tell me shit I totally know/I have further nuance/but nooooooo. It's obtuse.

Calm down. Breathe.

I'm saying that jazz musicians ("we") call chords with that structure "Dominant seventh chords", period. You can say it's dumb all day long, but it's a universal convention in jazz at this point (although one other common term for it is a "seven chord" [not a "sevenTH chord"]).

[jancivil]

Shit, I feel sure everybody I know understands better than that. You seem to take jazz musicians as a pretty dull bunch, totally uniform, then. Weird. Weird turn this thing took.
Read what a person wrote. "It's that way whether you like it or not" when I illustrated multiply I get 'that' is not too cool.

[jancivil]

Calm down. Breathe.

I'm saying that jazz musicians ("we") call chords with that structure "Dominant seventh chords", period. You can say it's dumb all day long, but it's a universal convention in jazz at this point (although one other common term for it is a "seven chord" [not a "sevenTH chord"]).

What structure? Major/minor seventh? For, what is it the fourth time now, I know <that>.
Here it is again, "You can say it's dumb all day long, but it's a ..." You can browbeat me all day long telling me some shit I already know for the umpteenth time. To what gain is unclear. It ain't about me being cool.

MadBrain said that all chord extensions start from the standpoint of a dominant 7th.. And you explained to me how that is, heh, Universally the case. I never talked to anybody in jazz on this rudimentary level I suppose. One mo' 'gin: YEAH "G7" is called dominant 7 all over the place. Dm7 is not a dominant 7. I'm done now. FFS.

[stringtapper]

Who ever said Dm7 is a dominant seventh?

I already explained that Madbrain was talking about the LABEL of the dominant seventh chord (in jazz) being the starting point for all other labels. Meaning its label is the simplest (just a "7") and all other get more complex from there.

He wasn't saying that to spell a minor seventh chord you start with a dominant chord and alter it from there. He was talking about the LABELS.

[jancivil]

Chord labels in jazz are indeed self-contained because the intervals and alterations are only in relation to the root of the chord, not in relation to a key. This is because jazz music moves through different key areas all the time. If the notation were to relate to keys it would be even more complicated than it is now. Abstracting the symbols to relate only to the chord roots give you a WYSIWYG method for identifying chords, without any considerations of function inherent to the notation (although the symbols can reveal functions when compared to the chord symbols around them).

Well, in that Esus b9 it isn't. It's in C Major, and it's not going anywhere, apparently. And why b9 if the note that is the 9 has no alterations?

The Levine subchapter in question is called Major Scale Harmony. The Esusb9 in question is next to E Phrygian. Next to Lydian is "F^7#4". Next to Mixolydian is "G7 (avoid sd. 4); (Gsus)"...

I don't know how 'abstracting the symbols to relate only to the chord roots' means anything. Either the music provides that key info or it's not needed.
When one groks G7b5b13 is probably headed to C, minor quality C (owing to the b13), then "abstracting the symbol" is not as abstract as all that, in other words. And it does relate to key, dominant targets a tonic type even as the target is moving, or even as that Cm7 is immediately ii of Bb, gets turned into C7b5 or what-have-you.

Anyway, if you're selling the idea of jazz theory school, it very nicely reinforces my idea that it's pretty terrible (Dave Liebman's endorsement of Levine notwithstanding). I'm So Glad I picked it up on the street in context of actual music instead of trying to parse all this lingo.

For fmr, who knows why Esusb9. Nobody would do that. It's internally inconsistent with his Avoid Tones for Cmaj7 and G7. Which is to avoid the minor 9th above the major 3rd. IE: since iii is pretty interchangeable with I, F above the E sounds like the F above the E on the C chord. Poor Hubert could not feature what to do with it on the guitar. People advised him ways to get the same notes as that even as they are not that.

This is too much crap to have in your head IME.

[fmr]

This thread derailed completely now. I vote for a "suspension" regarding the chord subject, and get back to modes. Chords may be interesting, and eventually deserving its own thread, but this way, we are loosing focus on the main subject (modes).

[jancivil]

Who ever said Dm7 is a dominant seventh?

I already explained that Madbrain was talking about the LABEL of the dominant seventh chord (in jazz) being the starting point for all other labels. Meaning its label is the simplest (just a "7") and all other get more complex from there.

He wasn't saying that to spell a minor seventh chord you start with a dominant chord and alter it from there. He was talking about the LABELS.

We're quite past that. For the fifth time, I KNOW.
But, to review: He said that all the chord extensions have the default of Dominant 7th as their standpoint.

There is a term for this latest addition: special pleading. I'll stand by my view, his and your explanations leave a lot to be desired.

A vanilla dominant seventh chord in jazz chord nomenclature (e.g. G7) is the most basic symbol of all seventh chords because it's just the root note name and a "7."

I can abstract <symbol for chord> from <chord> even as you conflate them in later explanations; not everyone is that clever 24/7/365. You had to help him quite a bit, you agree with his disposition to all this anyway. Enough, let's do something else.

[stringtapper]

Chord labels in jazz are indeed self-contained because the intervals and alterations are only in relation to the root of the chord, not in relation to a key. This is because jazz music moves through different key areas all the time. If the notation were to relate to keys it would be even more complicated than it is now. Abstracting the symbols to relate only to the chord roots give you a WYSIWYG method for identifying chords, without any considerations of function inherent to the notation (although the symbols can reveal functions when compared to the chord symbols around them).

Well, in that Esus b9 it isn't. It's in C Major, and it's not going anywhere, apparently. And why b9 if the note that is the 9 has no alterations?

Because, again, jazz chord symbols are self contained. A minor 9th above an E is F, thus "b9."

[stringtapper]

Who ever said Dm7 is a dominant seventh?

I already explained that Madbrain was talking about the LABEL of the dominant seventh chord (in jazz) being the starting point for all other labels. Meaning its label is the simplest (just a "7") and all other get more complex from there.

He wasn't saying that to spell a minor seventh chord you start with a dominant chord and alter it from there. He was talking about the LABELS.

We're quite past that. For the fifth time, I KNOW.
But, to review: He said that all the chord extensions have the default of Dominant 7th as their standpoint.

There is a term for this latest addition: special pleading. I'll stand by my view, his and your explanations leave a lot to be desired.

A vanilla dominant seventh chord in jazz chord nomenclature (e.g. G7) is the most basic symbol of all seventh chords because it's just the root note name and a "7."

I can abstract <symbol for chord> from <chord> even as you conflate them in later explanations; not everyone is that clever 24/7/365. You had to help him quite a bit, you agree with his disposition to all this anyway. Enough, let's do something else.

Ok, this has to be an ESL issue, because I can't make what you're saying make any sense as a response to what I'm saying. Oh well.

[stringtapper]

Actually, I think I see what he meant by "dominant as the default of all chord extensions."

What that means is that G7, G9, G11, and G13 all imply dominant seventh chords as the core seventh chord. And it's true, that's how it works in jazz theory.