Is there a Brickwall-Limiter plugin with external sidechain?

[Ray12]

Hi!
I'm looking for a Brickwall-Limiter plugin with sidechain function.
I would like to use it on the master channel in Logic X while I'm bouncing stems. I would like to feed the complete mix to the limiter's side channel so the stems are getting limited as if there was the whole mix going through th limiter.

This way hopefully the combination of the stems will sound the same as the mix that is bounced in one go.
I have aleready tried some compressors with sidechain and set the ratio to infinity => still peaks above threshold

Ray

[bbaggins]

I'd think any sidechainable compressor with a high ratio would accomplish what you want. Fabfilter Pro-C, for example, goes up to 100:1, which is effectively a limiter.

[kvaca]

Im afraid such limiter will be hard to find...and compressors are not designed for proper brickwall limiting, even with highest possible ratio!...because you also need superfast attack combined with proper lookahead to avoid all peaks above zero and with proper smoothing algorithm to avoid all ugly distortions resulted from superfast attack design

also the purpose of such task is not completely clear to me, brickwall limiters are usually used in the end of signal chain....when used anywhere inbetween you dont need brickwall at all since you are working in 32/64 bit floating point DAW enviroment and any peaks above zero do not harm your music since you can correct them anytime later

[Ray12]

Im afraid such limiter will be hard to find...and compressors are not designed for proper brickwall limiting, even with highest possible ratio!...because you also need superfast attack combined with proper lookahead to avoid all peaks above zero and with proper smoothing algorithm to avoid all ugly distortions resulted from superfast attack design

also the purpose of such task is not completely clear to me, brickwall limiters are usually used in the end of signal chain....when used anywhere inbetween you dont need brickwall at all since you are working in 32/64 bit floating point DAW enviroment and any peaks above zero do not harm your music since you can correct them anytime later

Compressors, even with the highest ratio are not a brickwall limiter. That's exactly my problem.
I'm not sure if I found the right words to describ my need. For my purpose the brickwall limiter is going to be at the very end of the signal chain.

I would love to use Fabfilter's Pro L, but there no sidechain option. Some people suggested such a feature in the fabfilter forum 2 years ago, but as fas as I know I hasn't been implemented yet.
https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/2053/pr ... eplies%3D8

There you can also find another description of what I'm trying to achieve.

[Novalis]

That's an interesting idea. I'm curious if the mix would sound exactly same.

Have you tried it out already with bus compressors, if the result is the same?

[Ray12]

Mix Bus compressors won't work for this purpose, because you need a limiter that let absolutely nothing through that is above 0 dB.

Apart from that:
I had some good results. For my ear there was (almost?) no difference, but the sum of the stems would peak at about +1dB, while each stem's maximum was quite below 0 dB.

[bbaggins]

"Compressors, even with the highest ratio are not a brickwall limiter."

Actually, that's exactly what a brickwall limiter is. Consider a 100:1 compression ratio. You'd have to raise the input level by 100 dB to get a 1 dB increase. There's no way your final mix has 100 dB of headroom. It would be virtually impossible to achieve an output measurably above the "brickwall limit" (hard knee). This is the basic definition of a limiter.

Granted, modern limiters go beyond simple compression mechanics, adding intelligence intended to make their actions less obvious. But that's also partly why they don't feature sidechain inputs.

Also, don't assume that so-called "brickwall" limiters absolutely never let anything through above the target level. In practice, most do. That why you don't set your brickwall target at 0 dB.

[kvaca]

That's an interesting idea. I'm curious if the mix would sound exactly same.

I dont see any reason why it shouldnt sound the same...

I would love to use Fabfilter's Pro L, but there no sidechain option. Some people suggested such a feature in the fabfilter forum 2 years ago, but as fas as I know I hasn't been implemented yet.
https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/2053/pr ... eplies%3D8
There you can also find another description of what I'm trying to achieve.

after reading the whole FF forum topic I still dont get the point - major advantage of archiving stems is possibility of remixing in the future...and with mastering stems you are effectively preventing this main purpose of archiving stems...
and by giving clients mastered stems I assume your client also got a decent DAW for playback, but any decent DAW already got decent limiter so I still dont see any advantage

[Ray12]

[/quote]
after reading the whole FF forum topic I still dont get the point - major advantage of archiving stems is possibility of remixing in the future...and with mastering stems you are effectively preventing this main purpose of archiving stems...
and by giving clients mastered stems I assume your client also got a decent DAW for playback, but any decent DAW already got decent limiter so I still dont see any advantage [/quote]


1) A very extreme example would be: You have a piece of music and there is a stem for pad sounds and a stem for the drum sounds. Let's assume that you set up the limiter in your master channel so that the pads is slightly pumping (and you want this effect). You won't have this effect if you bounce the drums and the pad sounds separately. And and if you play back all the stems at the same time, you won't get the same effect (the one you had in mind) unless you insert the same limiter in the master channel and use the same settings. You're right, all clients have a DAW and some decent limiters.
But they won't like to get instructions how to reassemble the tune. Everything must be there, or it never will be.
Basically, the idea is to have all the footprints that some elements leave on other elements if you limit everything together also in the stems. I know, there are arguments against this idea, but sometimes I just want to have it this way, because I know the client won't touch the stems but it makes him somehow happy to get stems so he COULD change something. But it's quite unlikely that anythings is changed after you delivered the stems...
2) Sometimes this is asked for if you deliver stems for a music library: If you playback all the stems it should sound exactly the same as if you play back the stereo mix. But then you can't have a limiter in the stereo sum unless you have a limiter with a sidechain option.
And please, I don't want to start a dicussion about the loudness war ...

[DJbrimLo]

I have also been hoping for a Brickwall - Limiter with external sidechain input from a reputable developer so that I can create stems of some of my mixes.

[Ray12]

"Compressors, even with the highest ratio are not a brickwall limiter."

Actually, that's exactly what a brickwall limiter is. Consider a 100:1 compression ratio. You'd have to raise the input level by 100 dB to get a 1 dB increase. There's no way your final mix has 100 dB of headroom. It would be virtually impossible to achieve an output measurably above the "brickwall limit" (hard knee). This is the basic definition of a limiter.

Granted, modern limiters go beyond simple compression mechanics, adding intelligence intended to make their actions less obvious. But that's also partly why they don't feature sidechain inputs.

Also, don't assume that so-called "brickwall" limiters absolutely never let anything through above the target level. In practice, most do. That why you don't set your brickwall target at 0 dB.

In theory, yes. At a very high ratio a compressor should act like limiter.
When I tested some compressors, none of them did. Even at ratios of 1:50, 1:100 or 1:infinity :-/

Of course, there are also issues with brickwall limiter: intersample peaks, ...

For me there is another reason why I usually set my brickwall target slightly below 0 dB: If you change the fileformat (make an mp3 for example) that you could have some clipping afterwards if you maximum peak was at 0dB before.
And sometimes I think cheap DA converters tend to slighty distort if you're constantly hitting 0dB (but that is just my feeling, nothing based on scientific research)...

[Synapse2k]

12 in numerology represents the rise of Europe. Utopia is a European theory. Dystopia is a desire of Republicans and their puny brained minions.

[Hink]

save the political talk for hpc please

[IIRs]

I've done this with bus compression before, but never a limiter. I don't think you will find a limiter with a sidechain input, as this very specific and unusual scenario is the only one in which it would make any sense.

If you want to try to use a compressor as a limiter I would suggest Pro-C2, and make use of the lookahead option.

[kvaca]

1) A very extreme example would be: You have a piece of music and there is a stem for pad sounds and a stem for the drum sounds. Let's assume that you set up the limiter in your master channel so that the pads is slightly pumping (and you want this effect). You won't have this effect if you bounce the drums and the pad sounds separately. And and if you play back all the stems at the same time, you won't get the same effect (the one you had in mind) unless you insert the same limiter in the master channel and use the same settings. You're right, all clients have a DAW and some decent limiters.
But they won't like to get instructions how to reassemble the tune. Everything must be there, or it never will be.
Basically, the idea is to have all the footprints that some elements leave on other elements if you limit everything together also in the stems. I know, there are arguments against this idea, but sometimes I just want to have it this way, because I know the client won't touch the stems but it makes him somehow happy to get stems so he COULD change something. But it's quite unlikely that anythings is changed after you delivered the stems...
2) Sometimes this is asked for if you deliver stems for a music library: If you playback all the stems it should sound exactly the same as if you play back the stereo mix. But then you can't have a limiter in the stereo sum unless you have a limiter with a sidechain option.
And please, I don't want to start a dicussion about the loudness war ...

Thaks for detailed explanation, now that all makes much better sense..

Your possible solutions are:
I recommed you to try good sidechain equipped compressor, dial limiter-like settings on it /infinite ratio,superfast attack,lookahead,true hold,peak detector etc../, and normalize the mastered audio to remove occasional overs...then use sidechain, compress all the stems and apply the same amount of gain as with normalisation used on master...job done!

But if you also need your audio as loud as possible /aka loudness war/, or you dont want to bother with normalisation, I would recommend you to choose sidechain compressor equipped with added limiter /like MDynamics or Compassion/