Nothing for DIY:ers dipping their toes…
On the Mac, I consider UVI the poor cousin from the country – it won't even remember paths! I use it only when there's no alternative, for instruments that I can't live without.
/Joachim
HISE, an open source competitor to Kontakt
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- KVRAF
- 3329 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden
Just out of curiosity, I checked up on the cost of a JUCE Indie license (the least expensive one). $50/month subscription or buy JUCE 4 for $1000.
Nothing for DIY:ers dipping their toes…
On the Mac, I consider UVI the poor cousin from the country – it won't even remember paths! I use it only when there's no alternative, for instruments that I can't live without.
/Joachim
Nothing for DIY:ers dipping their toes…
On the Mac, I consider UVI the poor cousin from the country – it won't even remember paths! I use it only when there's no alternative, for instruments that I can't live without.
/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 673 posts since 6 Dec, 2015
Like many dual license products, you can still go the GPLv3 route, thus nothing preventing you to use JUCE for DIY, and even for commercial products if you are ok to give away the original scripts on request. You are required to purchase a commercial license only if you want to keep your product closed source (and therefore cannot use the GPL license).Spitfire31 wrote:Just out of curiosity, I checked up on the cost of a JUCE Indie license (the least expensive one). $50/month subscription or buy JUCE 4 for $1000.
Nothing for DIY:ers dipping their toes…
/Joachim
Furthermore,
https://forum.juce.com/t/new-licensing-options/15837/24JUCE 4 has a new subscription model, so you can choose to pay per month, starting at $49. And until you release a commercial product on the market, you don't have to pay anything and can use the source code as you please (within the limits of the GPL).
edit: note that the licensing options in this thread aren't the final ones. Users complained and ROLI adjusted their pricing. The final pricing is here.
Last edited by lolilol1975 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3329 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden
I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up – it makes HISE a more interesting prospect when it eventually stabilises.lolilol1975 wrote: Like many dual license products, you can still go the GPLv3 route, thus nothing preventing you to use JUCE for DIY, and even for commercial products if you are ok to give away the original scripts on request. You are required to purchase a commercial license only if you want to keep your product closed source (and therefore cannot use the GPL license).
/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 673 posts since 6 Dec, 2015
I should have added that by original source, it also covers the samples themselves.Spitfire31 wrote:I didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up – it makes HISE a more interesting prospect when it eventually stabilises.lolilol1975 wrote: Like many dual license products, you can still go the GPLv3 route, thus nothing preventing you to use JUCE for DIY, and even for commercial products if you are ok to give away the original scripts on request. You are required to purchase a commercial license only if you want to keep your product closed source (and therefore cannot use the GPL license).
/Joachim
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- Banned
- 3889 posts since 3 Feb, 2010
Why is it a competitor to Kontakt 5? I see it nowhere near being a competitor to Kontakt
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- KVRAF
- 6372 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
They look the same at first but the Indie licence (which is only for sole traders) includes iOS and Android deployment whereas it's extra for the Pro licence, which is aimed at teams of developers or single developers working for a larger organisation.bungle wrote:So whats the deal
$999 for indie licence
$999 for pro licence
What's the difference ?
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- KVRAF
- 4314 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Hise is really interesting, I'm going to investigate it and see what can be done with it. Hopefully, it's stable and sounds good. If it turns out to be, the potential is big!
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- KVRAF
- 4314 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Ok, I've tried it, spent a couple of hours on it. First, it sounds quite good, there's still some bugs but overall I'm surprised by the sound quality of the software. However, the main problem for me is that it's open source and free. There's even less guarantee that it'll be supported in the future. If it were payware, the chances would be greater as there would be the money incentive and support to provide. Even Flowstone and SynthEdit cost money!
It's like an open source Kontakt for sure though, and it has a lot of potential. There's a big range of FXs and modulations you can stack, it's quite easy to use. The scripting part of Hise is very similar to Kontakt, except that it's way easier to use with drag and drop knobs (+ other graphical elements).
That being said, it doesn't load saved projects properly (a bug) and some of the FX's functions doesn't work (the Q control on the simple filter doesn't do anything).
Also, I have no idea how to compile a plugin with the current version. If anyone knows, let me know!
It's like an open source Kontakt for sure though, and it has a lot of potential. There's a big range of FXs and modulations you can stack, it's quite easy to use. The scripting part of Hise is very similar to Kontakt, except that it's way easier to use with drag and drop knobs (+ other graphical elements).
That being said, it doesn't load saved projects properly (a bug) and some of the FX's functions doesn't work (the Q control on the simple filter doesn't do anything).
Also, I have no idea how to compile a plugin with the current version. If anyone knows, let me know!
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- KVRAF
- 4314 posts since 31 Oct, 2004
Oh, this is good then! I hope it will work out, the community really needs alternatives to Kontakt and Hise has a lot of potential.bungle wrote:It is payware, Chris plans on selling licences when it is ready for showtime
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- KVRist
- 52 posts since 21 Apr, 2008 from Germany
Hi,
I am the developer of this software and I am excited that it starts generating some buzz on various forums. I written a detailed answer in the Cockos REAPERS forum about the general project and some technical stuff, so in order to avoid boring everybody including myself, I don't repeat it here. I don't know the forum policy for cross linking other forums, so if anybody interested, the mighty Google friend will help you out - Lolilol1975 was kind enough to use the same topic title there
The most pressing question in this topic seems to be the licensing so I'd like to point out a few things. It's true that you can use HISE (and JUCE) for free as long as you publish your sample libraries under the GPL licence (which states that you have to supply everything that is needed to build your software). This also includes the samples and scripts, so for everybody with commercial intentions it may not be the smartest choice.
But that's why HISE (and JUCE) offers a commercial licensing option which allows you to bypass the restrictions of the GPL and basically do whatever the licence allows as long as you throw some money at the licence holder. JUCE is a one time licence fee of $999 (that sounds a bit steep but still is a fraction of one KONTAKT Player licence). If I were you, I'd stay away from the subscription thingie, but this is only a personal opinion. The big question (that is yet to be answered) is how the HISE licence will be. I am currently thinking about these licence conditions:
- 500€ - 700€ per desktop plugin / app (with a low-cost option for low retail prices)
- 100€ - 200€ per iOS app
- Early Bird adopters will get a remarkable discount on either their first projects or in general. I'll need to spread the word and need people using this software and the only way is having developers put some trust in this system and give me feedback about bugs or feature requests that they might have.
The other thing I am working on is the HISE Player, which will be a closed sourced plugin that can load libraries made with HISE (you'll be able to export your sample libraries from HISE into one monolithic file that has a basic copy protection). This software will not be freeware (although it will be pretty cheap), but you can publish any instrument there completely for free. However it narrows down your customer base to the people who bought the HISE player for something between 10 and 20 bucks.
However these things are not carved in stone. I didn't start this project with the goal of producing a cash cow but because I thought it might be good for everybody if there is some movement in the sampler market (it's pretty monopolistic right now). So please let me know what you think of the licensing (this should really not be something that keeps you away from using HISE).
But honestly, I am working pretty hard on this thing and even if I abandon it at some distant point in a very sad future, it might be continued by some other people. On the contrary, there is a load of marvelous software projects (KeyMap Pro) that got bought up by a company and basically vanished from one day to the next.
I'd like to conclude with addressing some statements here:
1. WAV support is there since day one - it would be extremely stupid to not support this format. It can be fed with pretty much everything that JUCE supports (MP3, FLAC, OGG, ALAC, AIFF, WAV). I would not try to stream many voices with MP3 or FLAC though. But it may be possible that dragging samples from a native file browser seems to dislike some file endings (please let me know how you didn't manage to load .WAV files and I'll investigate). I mostly use the internal file browser and from there I can import every format.
2. loading projects might not work if you don't create a Project folder (I admit I have to improve the first look experience). Basically every file reference in HISE will be relative to this folder, however you can redirect your sample folder to point somewhere else). As soon as you create a project folder, it'll stop complaining about that weird SynthPresets folder - I didn't even knew that code is still in there
3. Fruity Loops is a little bit special because it seems to throw random buffer sizes at every plugin (from what I heard on other developer forums). HISE uses a lot of SSE optimizations which require at least a multiple of 4 (unless you write a fallback solution which I didn't do yet) so things might get funky there.
I don't know what caused this extremely high CPU usage, but actually HISE should perform pretty fine. Making the performance competitive is one of the key requirements of any sampler so I spent huge amounts of time profiling hotspots and tweaking the engine. It is definitely targetted to support hundreds of simultaneous voices with complex scripting and with all the hosts I tested it yet (Ableton, Cubase, Logic, REAPER) it works fine.
4. Please tell me about any bug you might encounter (either on GitHub or on the HISE forum). HISE is a pretty complex software with lots of dependencies so it might not run on your system for a pretty trivial case which can only be sorted out if I know of the problem.
I am the developer of this software and I am excited that it starts generating some buzz on various forums. I written a detailed answer in the Cockos REAPERS forum about the general project and some technical stuff, so in order to avoid boring everybody including myself, I don't repeat it here. I don't know the forum policy for cross linking other forums, so if anybody interested, the mighty Google friend will help you out - Lolilol1975 was kind enough to use the same topic title there
The most pressing question in this topic seems to be the licensing so I'd like to point out a few things. It's true that you can use HISE (and JUCE) for free as long as you publish your sample libraries under the GPL licence (which states that you have to supply everything that is needed to build your software). This also includes the samples and scripts, so for everybody with commercial intentions it may not be the smartest choice.
But that's why HISE (and JUCE) offers a commercial licensing option which allows you to bypass the restrictions of the GPL and basically do whatever the licence allows as long as you throw some money at the licence holder. JUCE is a one time licence fee of $999 (that sounds a bit steep but still is a fraction of one KONTAKT Player licence). If I were you, I'd stay away from the subscription thingie, but this is only a personal opinion. The big question (that is yet to be answered) is how the HISE licence will be. I am currently thinking about these licence conditions:
- 500€ - 700€ per desktop plugin / app (with a low-cost option for low retail prices)
- 100€ - 200€ per iOS app
- Early Bird adopters will get a remarkable discount on either their first projects or in general. I'll need to spread the word and need people using this software and the only way is having developers put some trust in this system and give me feedback about bugs or feature requests that they might have.
The other thing I am working on is the HISE Player, which will be a closed sourced plugin that can load libraries made with HISE (you'll be able to export your sample libraries from HISE into one monolithic file that has a basic copy protection). This software will not be freeware (although it will be pretty cheap), but you can publish any instrument there completely for free. However it narrows down your customer base to the people who bought the HISE player for something between 10 and 20 bucks.
However these things are not carved in stone. I didn't start this project with the goal of producing a cash cow but because I thought it might be good for everybody if there is some movement in the sampler market (it's pretty monopolistic right now). So please let me know what you think of the licensing (this should really not be something that keeps you away from using HISE).
Its not a bug, it's a featureHowever, the main problem for me is that it's open source and free.
But honestly, I am working pretty hard on this thing and even if I abandon it at some distant point in a very sad future, it might be continued by some other people. On the contrary, there is a load of marvelous software projects (KeyMap Pro) that got bought up by a company and basically vanished from one day to the next.I'd like to conclude with addressing some statements here:
1. WAV support is there since day one - it would be extremely stupid to not support this format. It can be fed with pretty much everything that JUCE supports (MP3, FLAC, OGG, ALAC, AIFF, WAV). I would not try to stream many voices with MP3 or FLAC though. But it may be possible that dragging samples from a native file browser seems to dislike some file endings (please let me know how you didn't manage to load .WAV files and I'll investigate). I mostly use the internal file browser and from there I can import every format.
2. loading projects might not work if you don't create a Project folder (I admit I have to improve the first look experience). Basically every file reference in HISE will be relative to this folder, however you can redirect your sample folder to point somewhere else). As soon as you create a project folder, it'll stop complaining about that weird SynthPresets folder - I didn't even knew that code is still in there
3. Fruity Loops is a little bit special because it seems to throw random buffer sizes at every plugin (from what I heard on other developer forums). HISE uses a lot of SSE optimizations which require at least a multiple of 4 (unless you write a fallback solution which I didn't do yet) so things might get funky there.
I don't know what caused this extremely high CPU usage, but actually HISE should perform pretty fine. Making the performance competitive is one of the key requirements of any sampler so I spent huge amounts of time profiling hotspots and tweaking the engine. It is definitely targetted to support hundreds of simultaneous voices with complex scripting and with all the hosts I tested it yet (Ableton, Cubase, Logic, REAPER) it works fine.
4. Please tell me about any bug you might encounter (either on GitHub or on the HISE forum). HISE is a pretty complex software with lots of dependencies so it might not run on your system for a pretty trivial case which can only be sorted out if I know of the problem.
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- KVRist
- 264 posts since 25 Oct, 2008
I Suggest to developers to get some video demos of how to use this software on you tube or their own site. Looks like the most interesting
piece of sampler software to hit the scene for a long time.
piece of sampler software to hit the scene for a long time.
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- KVRAF
- 1991 posts since 12 Mar, 2004
Licence pricing is fine if the documentation and tutorials are updated to include lots of working examples.
Right now the whole idea of using HISE crumbles under the weight of the very trial and error nature and minimal community (one person d.healey very much)
It would be cheaper and much easier to just learn c++ and JUCE which has good documentation and a huge community.
So yeah, the licencing will be fine once it is usable
A perfect example is "You can redirect you sample folder elsewhere" that is not the easiest of things to work out, but would be ridiculously simple had the explanation actually told you how to do it.
You could well get a lot of Reaper users though, they loveno documentation and obscure scripting and would enjoy the open source nature of the project, however they are unlikely to reach HISE full potential because while i am one of the longest serving users of Reaper, it is sort of a community of people who have little to no interest in usability or good UX
Right now the whole idea of using HISE crumbles under the weight of the very trial and error nature and minimal community (one person d.healey very much)
It would be cheaper and much easier to just learn c++ and JUCE which has good documentation and a huge community.
So yeah, the licencing will be fine once it is usable
A perfect example is "You can redirect you sample folder elsewhere" that is not the easiest of things to work out, but would be ridiculously simple had the explanation actually told you how to do it.
You could well get a lot of Reaper users though, they loveno documentation and obscure scripting and would enjoy the open source nature of the project, however they are unlikely to reach HISE full potential because while i am one of the longest serving users of Reaper, it is sort of a community of people who have little to no interest in usability or good UX
Duh