One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

[wagtunes]

i'll give 2 cents here. part of the allure of the comp is that all the tracks that are heard were made essentially at zero cost, aside from the initial DAW investment. so many forum posts on kvr, and other production sites are along the lines of "dude, you need PSP vintage warmer then your track will be DOPE!" and that's just nonsense. this competition is proof that bedroom producers don't need thousands of dollars of kit to make some killer tunes.

No, they don't. They need talent.

[Frostline]

I have a rule question (maybe a couple to be honest).
This will be based on the rules prior to this month's contest.(Yeah, way to complicate things eh?)

Do things that do not directly affect the sound produced need to be listed and do they also need to be free?
I discovered FX monitor window in Reaper. The way I understand it any FX I put on it will not alter my renders but just what I hear in my monitors or headphones.

So if say I put SPAN on that would it need to be listed in my track list since finished sound does not pass through it?

Also I have been considering getting a paid plug that is specifically for mixing with headphones. See http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-pa ... n-shootout for examples.
Would a paid item like that be allowed under the usual rules?
Would I need to list it?

I also wonder about midi notes for piano roll generation.
Say I use Melodyne to convert guitar signals to midi data and drop the midi data on a track for Synth1 to play. Is that allowed?
Or if I used a rhythm generator outside of my DAW to create midi note patterns for drums, would that be allowed and would the note generator need to be free?

Thanks

[ATN69]

I think that every rule still apply but with the difference that commercial plugs can also be used this month. I would claim that using that plug from pro-tools for mixing is allowed because it doesn't add or remove anything from the track. It's just another tool for mixing. It's like a pair of expensive monitors vs cheap speakers. I never used Melodyne but that's a composition tool..righ? So it doesn't really go on to the track and alter the sound in any way? I can't see why it should not be allowed if it is used to generate midi notes. I think sequencers been discussed to and the conclusion was that they were allowed to. The golden rule is that nothing you put on the track is allowed to alter the sound and the original character of the synth. The same rule apply but now some commercial plugs are allowed. That's all.

[Frostline]

Just to be clear the plug for the headphone thing would not be from pro-tools. The link just had several similar plugs all together in a nice list.

But thanks for the affirmation that I should be ok to do both things.

[opoint]

This digits synth has been around soo long in this community, and I can't even imagine how many plugins some of you may have, that this is kind of like saying to new kvr people, "Here's a contest to climb Mount Everest competing against seasoned climbers with their bolts and ascent routes already well established. Good luck"
Being new to KVR, I can't help but feel a complete loss of hope to ever reach that summit, or anywhere near it.

I would love to see more specific challenges like- one synth to show us your best sound design for punchy dnb drums, or acoustic sounding instruments, etc. Each contest thread would be a reference manual for me in that context. My intent on getting involved in the OSC's was to learn, network, and improve. I could care less about a prize compared to the aspiration of learning new techniques, improvement, the possible feeling of accomplishment, and becoming part of a knowledgeable community. If I won a virtual banana sticker I would be ecstatic, but losing that hope makes a contest feel, well...a bit discouraging and futile. I'm sure there are plenty of posts on sound design but these contests really attracted me personally to get the inspiration flowing with more focus, it gave a defined goal to learn or accomplish something using specific and limited tools which anyone could access.

Some distortion and shaping plugins will allow people to just automate some crazy ass shit with little or no effort other than slapping some random presets on there while others will painstakingly try to create their sounds manually. Or automation being created by things such as max for live while others have no access to such plugins. Or some with paid midi composition plugins to enter in single notes and have everything in beautiful harmony with very little melodic thought or effort. Some people probably have full on projects saved from years ago using this synth that have tons of time already dedicated to it which they can pull out and now apply the most expensive mixing and mastering plugins available. I really wonder who brought up this request of change and the reasons why.

That's my opinion on why this change has lost my interest in OSC, because it essentially removed the main aspects that attracted me to these contests in the first place. I really enjoyed the limitation and posts people would make allowing others without loads of plugins to learn and practice specific techniques. I would have preferred more limitation, like raw synth and only the use of one free set of plugins consisting of maybe a comp, eq, limiter, verb, and delay. Ah well, count me out.

[z.prime]

Some distortion and shaping plugins will allow people to just automate some crazy ass shit with little or no effort other than slapping some random presets on there while others will painstakingly try to create their sounds manually.

That's my opinion on why this change has lost my interest in OSC, because it essentially removed the main aspects that attracted me to these contests in the first place. ... I would have preferred more limitation, like raw synth and only the use of one free set of plugins consisting of maybe a comp, eq, limiter, verb, and delay. Ah well, count me out.

You realize, still, the overarching tenet of the osc is that the fx may not significantly change the sound of the synth?

[opoint]

Yes, but to me "significantly changed" becomes a much more obscure definition when soo many plugins are allowed. I personally don't have ears discerning enough to take a very complex track with alot going on, especially with a synth like the digits for this month and say, "that zooomzap thing sounds too changed."

My favorite aspect of OSC was not to marvel at the incredible production value of people's tracks, but to learn a new synth with some specific traits to it, a bit of history about the synth or it's inspiration, and learn some new sound design techniques with the contest aspect just for fun and focus. I would pay for the contest if it was more like, I dunno, synth college or something. Like this last contest I learned how cool per voice modulations are. And others have given insight into sound design and tricks to make certain sounds. But it feels opening up the flood gates to use of all plugins takes away from that aspect I enjoyed soo much. I liked it when it felt like I could learn to create a drum sound similar to that, and not wonder if some day I'll afford that punchy analog modeling compressor or sweet amp modeler.

That's my opinion, I'm not trying to debate or anything.

[opoint]

Sorry I didn't mean digits, synth 1. It was one of the first free synths I ever download years ago. It's modeled on the nord lead isn't it? Very powerful free synth.

[ATN69]

My tracks will not be better just because I all of a sudden can use a paid for reverb, delay, compressor, EQ or stereo enhancer. Only skills can make my tracks better and that is something I can't buy. I am working on in though and that is why I participate here. Besides, this is not World Championship or Olympic games. It is a competition for sure, but I am here to get friends and learn new useful things about music making, and to have some fun. Some times it seems that this is getting way too serious for some individuals.

If you want to beat Jasinski, Z-prime, Taron, ..and all the other names that frequent the top 5, then you have to work harder. Learn new things and try new things. No paid or free plugins will take you there, sorry to say, or else I would been a famous artist a long time ago, because of the money I spent on plugins. But this is the truth and you know it...and I know it Peace and love!

[opoint]

That was my personal opinion on why I liked not having paid plugins involved, which is the purpose of this thread no?
Ok........

1.If paid plugins don't have any effect on improving the sound of something over free ones then why do you own any?

2.Why does the waves Mercury bundle cost 3000 dollars? Because they don't sound good?

3.Why does Amplitude cost 150 dollars and why does the native ableton amp modeler suck in comparison?
- that's my opinion again.

4.What is the reason for adding paid plugins to the contest at all?

That kinda didn't sound very peaceful, AND YOU KNOW IT. JKing all good.

I said I'd like more restrictions for the purposes of learning personally, like the sanford reverb for instance people recommended me to try. If I owned Altiverb or something I'd have surely just used that.
I really liked the whole freeware aspect, I'm sure many others did aswell. Sure the forums are there for all that info, but the osc posts seem alot more relevant to the synth at hand. Like the Sanford recommendation on the Tyrell OSC for that Vangelis kind of sound.

Again, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION. Others may disagree and that's fine, but please don't take it personally, or make it personal.

[ATN69]

sorry Opoint. I don't dissagree with you as such. Reality is never black or white and we might think different depending on who we are, experiences, etc. I still think though that this competition can become too serious for some. Even though I might have spotted some unfair practises in the past, I just ignored it ..so what if I don't win. I didn't win anything yet but I gained a whole lot of knowledge thanks to the people here who so kindly and willingly share their knowledge.

For me personally it's the fact that I normally use Melda plugs. I have the MFreebundle with a nice compressor and EQ. I normally use them outside OSC so I am familiar to them ..that's all. There reason I didn't use them in OSC is because I paid for them so that I could get them resizable and some other cosmetic features. All of a sudden it's not free anymore..in the eyes of the rules. But other people here use the MFree effects. Its not fair since I can''t have 2 installations of them and use them as well. So this is my personal point.

1. I own plugs because I been falling for the myth that it will make my music better. But I know better now ..and it's fun to have something that I enjoy. I buy some plugs for inspiration. The last is GAS.

2. Waves Mercury bundle cost 3k because it's Waves and it contain all the plugs they ever made, plus the fact that they want to get a good salary for the developers maybe ..does it sound better? ..well it depends. I know several other plugs matching up to Waves.

3. Never heard of Amplitude. Ableton however are not shy to charge a handsome money for their stuff, same as Waves. I own Bitwig and Ableton Lite 9 and FL Studio. I choose Bitwig over Ableton for 2 reasons. Cost and workflow. I like it a bit better in Bitwig compared to Ableton. Some of the developers moved from Ableton to Bitwig so you can see some similarities between the two. Is Ableton better than Bitwig? ..in my opinion the answer is NO. But Ableton enjoy a higher status on the market so they can charge more for the name.

4. This month is just a try to see if allowing some paid plugs actually will change the result at all and just for the fun of it. After this month there will be a vote and everyone can give their opinion for the rules. The thing is that this topic have been coming back over and over and running a "live test" like this can give some ansvers.

On another note. It's impossible to make the play field all level and fair even if only free plugins are used. I give some examples. There will always be room for interpretation of what plugs are allowed or not. Camel crusher is one example. It's a bit crusher and as such it should not be allowed because it alter the sound. But by claiming that "a small level" added is okay, then rules have been amended. There might be free plugs used with installers that can't be found anymore (as Steven Wags) mentioned. It's not fair also in such case because it's not available for all contestants. We kan keep on and on about other unfair reasons, but personally I always tried to stay on the safe side and avoid questionable plugs. For all free plugs I am of course prepared to share where I found them so anyone can get them.

I have much more to learn but if I can help you or anyone with anything at all, then don't be shy to ask. It might be a competition but that's not my main focus.

Cheers!

[ontrackp]

I understand the nervousness expressed by some participants. As someone who lobbied for being allowed to use commercial plugins, here's my reasoning, and it's really simple:

- workflow. It's hard enough to learn to use one synth, design a full set of sounds, compose and arrange a new piece of music, and mix it. I do not wish to learn my way around EQ's, compressors and reverbs that I would normally not be using in the course of my regular production. Most of us have limited time, and my time is better spent sound-designing and composing, not figuring out how to make a free compressor sound like something I use a lot and know very well. If you don't own any plug-ins, but rely on the free ones for your other productions, you probably know them very well and know how to get the best results from them, which actually gives you an advantage over those of us who use commercial plugs for all of our other work.

- commercial plug ins do not make me a better sound designer, composer or producer.

- The same, simple, logical, common sense, easy to understand rule -- DON'T USE SOMETHING THAT SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGES THE SOUND THAT COMES FROM THE SYNTH -- applies. No chorus, phasers, distortion, etc.... This is not hard to understand and the amount of debate and misunderstanding is incomprehensible to me.

- As we all will list what we use when we submit our songs, it will be clear if, and how much, this makes a difference. If it really skews the results, everyone will see that and the rule can be changed back.

As far as sound goes, commercial plugins will only affect production -- not sound design or composition, so a great creative piece should still get a high score.

I think this is a fun and interesting experiment and I give BJ lots of credit for allowing it. Thank you BJ!

[wagtunes]

I understand the nervousness expressed by some participants. As someone who lobbied for being allowed to use commercial plugins, here's my reasoning, and it's really simple:

- workflow. It's hard enough to learn to use one synth, design a full set of sounds, compose and arrange a new piece of music, and mix it. I do not wish to learn my way around EQ's, compressors and reverbs that I would normally not be using in the course of my regular production. Most of us have limited time, and my time is better spent sound-designing and composing, not figuring out how to make a free compressor sound like something I use a lot and know very well. If you don't own any plug-ins, but rely on the free ones for your other productions, you probably know them very well and know how to get the best results from them, which actually gives you an advantage over those of us who use commercial plugs for all of our other work.

- commercial plug ins do not make me a better sound designer, composer or producer.

- The same, simple, logical, common sense, easy to understand rule -- DON'T USE SOMETHING THAT SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGES THE SOUND THAT COMES FROM THE SYNTH -- applies. No chorus, phasers, distortion, etc.... This is not hard to understand and the amount of debate and misunderstanding is incomprehensible to me.

- As we all will list what we use when we submit our songs, it will be clear if, and how much, this makes a difference. If it really skews the results, everyone will see that and the rule can be changed back.

As far as sound goes, commercial plugins will only affect production -- not sound design or composition, so a great creative piece should still get a high score.

I think this is a fun and interesting experiment and I give BJ lots of credit for allowing it. Thank you BJ!

I couldn't agree more. Everything else is just sour grapes.

[opoint]

Good explanations guys I hear ya. Can I use my custom max for live plugins? They do not do anything but automate in interesting ways, such as morphing through presets and such.

[surreal]

Hey Everyone!!

Hope ya all doing?

I have been reading and lurking a loooong time in this forum... and few things grabbed my attention..

That there are awesome and even commercial composers that takes part in this competition. . And that's great... except when people are decondescending towards newbies or upcoming composers that maybe don't have the skilset as the regular top five that seem to place highly and poised for positions every competition.. this is extremely discouraging towards those who also tries their best at their work.. my point being this... to encourage growth in the competion maybe to award prizes not only to the top 5 placed but what about encourage those that has shown great improvements in their compositions... maybe also for those that the track arrangements were not that great in production value but their sound design was great... or maybe those whom had good melodies and arrangements but just couldnt putthe mix together.... and then maybe my most controversial suggestion seeing that we are running a controversial competition this month with commercial plugs.. if a person wins more than twice.. they should maybe be not permitted to take part in the next 3 competitions to level the playing field for others.. just a thought...