Calling All Guitar Players - Real Guitar VS Vir 2

[brainzistor]

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--3-- ---- ------
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and
--0--
--0--
--4--
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For people who are not entirely clueless about guitar and MIDI, DAW's, sound libraries can get my point more than easy.
If you are entirely clueless and these 2 simple examples don't mean a thing to you, then you'll be fine with any guitar sound library because you are not making a difference between piano and string instrument such as guitar. Just don't bother, literally any guitar sound library will be good for you.

[Compyfox]

@nordickvr:
I take that as a compliment



@brainzistor
So you're basically saying that most guitar libraries fail in terms of custom chord triggering? Understanable, keyboardists don't necessarily know whats going on here.

And again, I can only speak for Musiclab, but there is a cool hidden feature that people overlook/not realize...

You can press on the strings directly and it outputs not only sound but also MIDI. Though granted, downtuned strings are a bit hard to port from TAB to the RealGuitar engine.

Here AmpleSound's TAB Player in their guitars is just an awesome concept

[EvilDragon]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

[wagtunes]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

The problem with those is that they don't provide the value (cost per guitar) that Vir2 does. In fact, it's not even close. I can get 14 Vir2 guitars for $650. Nobody else comes close.

[xphen0m]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

Agreed. 1,001% accurate analysis. I've been trying to get RealEight's raw tone to sound good for I don't know how long and it just sounds bad compared to the Kontakt offerings. The thing I like about RealEight is the features, that keeps attracting me back to it but then I try something new with the raw tone and it just sounds awful.

I had been experimenting with EQ'ing the DI before it hits any other effect with other guitar stuff. I tried it with RealEight and got results that were just "okay". It still didn't sound "good", per se.

[DocAtlas]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

The problem with those is that they don't provide the value (cost per guitar) that Vir2 does. In fact, it's not even close. I can get 14 Vir2 guitars for $650. Nobody else comes close.

It seems to me that if you're building up a collection of virtual guitars from few or none, the Vir2 package really can't be beat. You can always augment it later with other libraries if the need arises, but the current price you mentioned is a very good deal for all you're getting. If I didn't already have most of my guitar needs covered, I'd be seriously considering buying them myself.

[Compyfox]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

Agreed. 1,001% accurate analysis. I've been trying to get RealEight's raw tone to sound good for I don't know how long and it just sounds bad compared to the Kontakt offerings. The thing I like about RealEight is the features, that keeps attracting me back to it but then I try something new with the raw tone and it just sounds awful.

I do understand the commentary in this case, and yes... the samples do sound "not as good out of the box" because of various things:

1) (perceived) lack of lowend
2) lack of a "recorded" passive circuit (Tone and Volume Dial, both having influence on the high frequency content) - we also don't know the string height or what PU's were used (which also has influence on the general sound)
3) Mic placement (possible lack of proximity effect, acoustic guitars especially)


I mentioned this a couple of times at this point. Another thing that was (is) a huge turnoff for a lot of users, is that they simply then run the guitar into the amp (with xyz hi-gain preset of AT3) and things just sound harsh, thin, artificial, etc. Which in turn gives the impression "this thing sounds bad/fake, etc". You can hear/see that over and over in various "first look" Youtube videos, especially those (sorry for that definition) "keyboard wankers".

RealStrat especially needs(!) a LPF before you hit a pedal or an amp - even more so if you play in the higher registers. Add a compressor for good measure (or a transient designer), and boom - suddenly a better sound before you hit the amp. Then, don't play like you'd play a keyboard, think how a guitarist would play it, what it's limitations are - this adds to the realism. And finally you still need to understand how an amp works. Non-guitarists just hope for the best (and give the resulting feedback) with just running things through presets, but if you know how to "handle" an amp (which is an artform in itself)... you can really make things shine.

So yeah... I guess these are the deal-breakers if you trust the endless demos all over the net.

People just expect that the sound is "mellow"/rounded-out - or in other words "realistic" right from the start - because they're used to that from Kontakt Samples and what have you. But the sound is directly out of the pickups, no passive circuit, therefore no LPF (high frequency roll off) or certain frequency dips. If you understand that, you can work against this issue. It's a blank slate, not an already over-processed sound.



The same goes for the acoustic guitars...

"they sound fake" "have you tried EQ and compression - maybe even a 'proximity effect' alternation tool?", "no?! they need to sound great out of the box" "you do realize that a certain pop sound is due to overused mixing processes like compression and EQ?!" "I'm not a pro at this, I want instant gratification - also, the strumming is unrealistic" "have you tried the Humanize engine?!" "that makes things worse" "thought about tweaking it?!" "I don't know what to do! This thing is crap!".

Rinse, repeat.



I created an audio demo for RealGuitars in recent days. You can find it here:
viewtopic.php?p=6624929#p6624929

What did I do?

I used RealGuitar 4 (Engine 4), with the Humanize Engine, else just the Chord&Pick Mode and an appropriate guitar (Steel Picked). I did change some minor things however:
- the Plectrum Position is at +1
- Alternate is at 2 (default)
- Bass EQ is at +3 (dB)
- Fret Noise is at +3 (dB)

After that, I ran everything though an EQ, directly followed by a compressor:

EQ:
HPF - 82Hz
LowShelf - 330Hz / +3dB
LowMid Bell - 680Hz / -0,5dB, narrow
HighMid Bell - 4,7khz / +6dB (or even +8dB)
HighShelf - 10kHz / +4,5dB
LPF (to round things out again): 18kHz

Compressor:
Threshold -24,5dB
Ratio 3:1
Attack: 25ms (transients went through, my focus was to raise the sustain)
Release 295ms (or roughtly 300ms)
Make Up +2dB

Add delay and reverb to taste

Suddenly things didn't sound as thing anymore, usable for solo guitar performances. I could have even toyed around with TDL's Proximity to change the mic position for even more controlled lowend.



"But these settings are too drastic - you shouldn't boost as much"
Have you ever seen production videos for pop songs and how much has been boosted there? Or how often? This is adding up on the long run.



Yes - Musiclab guitars do sound thin right out of the box. There is no questioning around that (it's not necessarily down to the age - I still use 15+ yo orchestra samples, which are also "thin sounding", but work so well with a lot of productions). But LEARN how to work with that, shape the sound to anything you need. Want a more thin/stingy Stratocaster - you can have that. Want a more mellow Stratocaster - boost the lowend, maybe raise a certain frequency additional to that before hitting a pedal, don't forget the LPF. Not enough attack, use the "pick gain" setting, or put a transient designer post the guitar output. RealEight too Lowend heavy, utilize the built in LowShelf.


"But xyz guitar (e.g. AmpleSound) does this so much better"
Yeah - probably... if you feel like that, then use it. Whatever feels the most comfortable to you.


I've learned to live with the setbacks of the Musiclab engine. But I also know how to work around that. And trust me, I wish I'd have known that around the time I started using these guitars (mid 2000s). I was also like "this is frustrating, this sounds crap and artificial". The learning curve was steep, I think the developers couldn't hear my criticism anymore either. But I bit my way through it - which in turn offers you some (hopefully) excellent tips for using this guitar engine.

[original flipper]

Hi

Saved the above post for future reference - always found I have to do quite a bit of tweaking to get a decent guitar sound from sample based app.

Many thanks Compyfox

[xphen0m]

IMHO RealGuitar libraries don't sound as good as Kontakt offerings. I'm not sure why, but raw tone is just bleh. Go with Orange Tree Samples, or Ample Guitars.

Agreed. 1,001% accurate analysis. I've been trying to get RealEight's raw tone to sound good for I don't know how long and it just sounds bad compared to the Kontakt offerings. The thing I like about RealEight is the features, that keeps attracting me back to it but then I try something new with the raw tone and it just sounds awful.

I do understand the commentary in this case, and yes... the samples do sound "not as good out of the box" because of various things:

1) (perceived) lack of lowend
2) lack of a "recorded" passive circuit (Tone and Volume Dial, both having influence on the high frequency content) - we also don't know the string height or what PU's were used (which also has influence on the general sound)
3) Mic placement (possible lack of proximity effect, acoustic guitars especially)


I mentioned this a couple of times at this point. Another thing that was (is) a huge turnoff for a lot of users, is that they simply then run the guitar into the amp (with xyz hi-gain preset of AT3) and things just sound harsh, thin, artificial, etc. Which in turn gives the impression "this thing sounds bad/fake, etc". You can hear/see that over and over in various "first look" Youtube videos, especially those (sorry for that definition) "keyboard wankers".

RealStrat especially needs(!) a LPF before you hit a pedal or an amp - even more so if you play in the higher registers. Add a compressor for good measure (or a transient designer), and boom - suddenly a better sound before you hit the amp. Then, don't play like you'd play a keyboard, think how a guitarist would play it, what it's limitations are - this adds to the realism. And finally you still need to understand how an amp works. Non-guitarists just hope for the best (and give the resulting feedback) with just running things through presets, but if you know how to "handle" an amp (which is an artform in itself)... you can really make things shine.

So yeah... I guess these are the deal-breakers if you trust the endless demos all over the net.

People just expect that the sound is "mellow"/rounded-out - or in other words "realistic" right from the start - because they're used to that from Kontakt Samples and what have you. But the sound is directly out of the pickups, no passive circuit, therefore no LPF (high frequency roll off) or certain frequency dips. If you understand that, you can work against this issue. It's a blank slate, not an already over-processed sound.



The same goes for the acoustic guitars...

"they sound fake" "have you tried EQ and compression - maybe even a 'proximity effect' alternation tool?", "no?! they need to sound great out of the box" "you do realize that a certain pop sound is due to overused mixing processes like compression and EQ?!" "I'm not a pro at this, I want instant gratification - also, the strumming is unrealistic" "have you tried the Humanize engine?!" "that makes things worse" "thought about tweaking it?!" "I don't know what to do! This thing is crap!".

Rinse, repeat.



I created an audio demo for RealGuitars in recent days. You can find it here:
viewtopic.php?p=6624929#p6624929

What did I do?

I used RealGuitar 4 (Engine 4), with the Humanize Engine, else just the Chord&Pick Mode and an appropriate guitar (Steel Picked). I did change some minor things however:
- the Plectrum Position is at +1
- Alternate is at 2 (default)
- Bass EQ is at +3 (dB)
- Fret Noise is at +3 (dB)

After that, I ran everything though an EQ, directly followed by a compressor:

EQ:
HPF - 82Hz
LowShelf - 330Hz / +3dB
LowMid Bell - 680Hz / -0,5dB, narrow
HighMid Bell - 4,7khz / +6dB (or even +8dB)
HighShelf - 10kHz / +4,5dB
LPF (to round things out again): 18kHz

Compressor:
Threshold -24,5dB
Ratio 3:1
Attack: 25ms (transients went through, my focus was to raise the sustain)
Release 295ms (or roughtly 300ms)
Make Up +2dB

Add delay and reverb to taste

Suddenly things didn't sound as thing anymore, usable for solo guitar performances. I could have even toyed around with TDL's Proximity to change the mic position for even more controlled lowend.



"But these settings are too drastic - you shouldn't boost as much"
Have you ever seen production videos for pop songs and how much has been boosted there? Or how often? This is adding up on the long run.



Yes - Musiclab guitars do sound thin right out of the box. There is no questioning around that (it's not necessarily down to the age - I still use 15+ yo orchestra samples, which are also "thin sounding", but work so well with a lot of productions). But LEARN how to work with that, shape the sound to anything you need. Want a more thin/stingy Stratocaster - you can have that. Want a more mellow Stratocaster - boost the lowend, maybe raise a certain frequency additional to that before hitting a pedal, don't forget the LPF. Not enough attack, use the "pick gain" setting, or put a transient designer post the guitar output. RealEight too Lowend heavy, utilize the built in LowShelf.


"But xyz guitar (e.g. AmpleSound) does this so much better"
Yeah - probably... if you feel like that, then use it. Whatever feels the most comfortable to you.


I've learned to live with the setbacks of the Musiclab engine. But I also know how to work around that. And trust me, I wish I'd have known that around the time I started using these guitars (mid 2000s). I was also like "this is frustrating, this sounds crap and artificial". The learning curve was steep, I think the developers couldn't hear my criticism anymore either. But I bit my way through it - which in turn offers you some (hopefully) excellent tips for using this guitar engine.

While I'm admittedly a "keyboard guitarist", I have a basic understanding of how an amp works. My problem with RealEight is that, among other things, the DI has WAY too much low end. I don't know if it's the pickups they used during sampling, the strings, or what. When I put it through any amp sim out of the box, it sounds like hot garbage. Compare that to OTS' Dracus, Prominy V-Metal (ESPECIALLY), and the Shreddage libraries, where I can spend a minimal amount of time "preparing" the DI before it hits anything. I tried EQ'ing RealEight numerous times and I just recently got "okay" results from that.

The bad sound of the DI and what sounds like machine gunning is ESPECIALLY noticeable on faster passages no matter what settings I use on anything. Even with the round robin feature thing (whatever MusicLab calls it) maxed out and with the humanize functions enabled/tweaked, there's still an apparent machine gunning effect.

Overall, compared to the Kontakt and to an extent the Ample Sound libraries, the RealEight library just sounds plain ol' bad.

Now that said, I've noticed a problem with Evolution Dracus over the past year. There's a number of articulations in there that don't sound good. It's really bad with palm muting, I have to say. They only recorded two up, two down round robins and it's extremely noticeable.

The best experience I've personally had with a metal guitar library is Prominy's V-Metal. Yes, it's programming heavy (with what you can automate), but in the few months I've been using it, I have gotten far better results than either Dracus or especially RealEight.

I do like the Shreddage libraries, I just want to say.

[wagtunes]

Through all of this, the only thing I've heard "bad" about Vir2 so far is that it's "complicated" to program but nothing bad about its sound or realism.

So in other words, if you take the time to learn it (and I'm sure it's quite a learning curve) it can sound pretty darn good.

And that's good enough for me as long as I can't even fully demo the Music Lab stuff because of the "restrictions" on their 14 day "unlimited" demos.

Oxymoron at its finest.

[Compyfox]

Hi

Saved the above post for future reference - always found I have to do quite a bit of tweaking to get a decent guitar sound from sample based app.

Many thanks Compyfox

Glad to be of help. Though keep in mind, this is just "one" possibility to tweak the sound of a guitar. In this case, it was a standalone guitar, not one being in a mix. So this setting might not work in other mixes. Same goes for the compressor.

Your ears are ultimately your best weapon of choice rather than settings off of the web.

(hint for you: try to find an instrument frequency chart)

My problem with RealEight is that, among other things, the DI has WAY too much low end. I don't know if it's the pickups they used during sampling, the strings, or what. When I put it through any amp sim out of the box, it sounds like hot garbage. Compare that to OTS' Dracus, Prominy V-Metal (ESPECIALLY), and the Shreddage libraries, where I can spend a minimal amount of time "preparing" the DI before it hits anything. I tried EQ'ing RealEight numerous times and I just recently got "okay" results from that.

I assume you already tried dialing down the LowShelf by a couple of dB, maybe even adding a HPF/LC post the guitar to maybe "clean up" some signal before it hits a distortion or boost pedal? Treble Booster? Dialing back the bass on the guitar amp? Etc?

The bad sound of the DI and what sounds like machine gunning is ESPECIALLY noticeable on faster passages no matter what settings I use on anything. Even with the round robin feature thing (whatever MusicLab calls it) maxed out and with the humanize functions enabled/tweaked, there's still an apparent machine gunning effect.

Overall, compared to the Kontakt and to an extent the Ample Sound libraries, the RealEight library just sounds plain ol' bad.

Oh, I remember that commentary. Didn't I try to help you with that?

Honestly, the "machine gunning" might be a psycho-acoustic effect, as with "Alternate" dialed up to 5 and Humanize on (especially the micro pitching), there should be no(!!!) same sounding sample happening at all.

So no, I can't confirm that I'm afraid. Then again, I'm not into 32th note string riding.

I do like the Shreddage libraries, I just want to say.

Shreaddage is a good library IMO, but if you listen to the "Clash on the Big Bridge" audio demo by zircon (Made with Shreddage v1, prior to the X add on IIRC), you clearly hear "machine gunning" as well, and some very unrealistic guitar play in the fast past of the song. Other than that, great simplified concept.

Shreddage Bass 1 is my go-to picked bass library, fingered it's Pettinhouse DirectBass - I've yet to try MODO Bass to be honest, and OTS's Cherry Bass is still on my wish-list (again, I've yet to try MODO Bass).

Through all of this, the only thing I've heard "bad" about Vir2 so far is that it's "complicated" to program but nothing bad about its sound or realism.

So in other words, if you take the time to learn it (and I'm sure it's quite a learning curve) it can sound pretty darn good.

And that's good enough for me as long as I can't even fully demo the Music Lab stuff because of the "restrictions" on their 14 day "unlimited" demos.

Oxymoron at its finest.

Well, if I'd be in your shoes, then Electri6ity might be a risky move as there is no demo to check out it's usability, and the guitar "sound" is basically post amp (which sometimes sounds super bombastic - so... "instant gratification" so to speak).

Maybe I'm too long in this game, or I just know too much engineering wise, but marketing isn't anything.

Also... sound design wise: fixed settings (Neck or Bridge PU, one "mixed" setting) - not cool for a Stratocaster. Here I prefer the PU selection of Musiclab. But then, there is the "thin sound" to most people.



It's complicated indeed.

[Aliens]

or Ample Guitars.

Definitely my choice.

[wagtunes]

Well, if I'd be in your shoes, then Electri6ity might be a risky move as there is no demo to check out it's usability, and the guitar "sound" is basically post amp (which sometimes sounds super bombastic - so... "instant gratification" so to speak).

Maybe I'm too long in this game, or I just know too much engineering wise, but marketing isn't anything.

Also... sound design wise: fixed settings (Neck or Bridge PU, one "mixed" setting) - not cool for a Stratocaster. Here I prefer the PU selection of Musiclab. But then, there is the "thin sound" to most people.



It's complicated indeed.

Well, I never said there was a "perfect" solution. And yeah, not being able to demo Vir 2 at all doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and toasty inside. But my main concern there is simply that it works. And I've yet to buy a Kontakt library that didn't work. I like the sound and have seen the MIDI that has generated these parts. Yeah, there is a lot of switching going on. But the point is, if you get your switching right, you WILL come up with a very convincing guitar part. Again, I listened to the Layla demo and I swear I thought I was listening to the record, a song that I grew up with in the early 70s. So if there was ANYTHING off at all, I would have spotted it.

It was DEAD ON THE MONEY.

That alone is good enough for me. I've heard what this thing can do. My only concern is that it works. And if it doesn't, I am sure there has to be a way to get my money back even if I have to send them a video of exactly what's going on with my system. But again, every Kontakt library I've gotten so far, and I have tons of them, works flawlessly.

I'll consider Music Labs as an alternative if and when I can get a fully functioning demo. Because what I'm hearing so far, especially on the LPC, is far from convincing. And no recordings that I've heard, unlike the Vir2 stuff, have impressed me.

[Compyfox]

Yeah, that Layla demo was indeed great.

[tapper mike]

Sorry, late to the party.

Most of Howe's electric playing is not from his 335 but from his 175. Huge difference in tone. Also quite different then "out of the box" jazz guitar tones which are L5's and Super 400's

Another thing to note about SH's hybrid alternate picking style. It's very Travis style which means that the alternating bass is a pick (plectrum) with fingernail for the melody/ supporting harmony. That means you'd need to do a very strange split and have muted flatpick alternating bass with your left and right hand would do the clean playing. Howe also strums with the pick across the notes in various other places and will flatpick for melody in other parts of the same song. Expect to do several overdubs to get it to work. and/or multiple manuals (keybeds)