If every step adds "its own color" from production to listening, how would you reckon Sound Design?

[Nowhk]

For what I'm learning in DSP and music design, every playback device/listening environment will produce a different sounding result, due to its own properties that are added to the sound.

Thus, the "timbre" of a sound you have created will change a bit every time you play it, period.
Once you have create "that sound" in the Sound Design stage (lets call is SOUND A), next there are many steps before the sound reach the listener. A few...

- the sound you made will be processed by mixing/mastering tools, which every one adds "its own color";
- every ADC/DAC (or even a final hardware mixer) adds "its own color";
- when you play on a fixed room/space, it adds "its own color";
- when you play on a fixed speaker, it adds "its own color";

So my question is: how do you reckon SOUND A if every time you play it in different environment (or mixed in different way) you would hear SOUND X (which is SOUND A + lots of colors)? Do you just guess it?

[DJ Warmonger]

What you talk about here is more related mixdown/mastering - how to make the sound stay strong in any circumstances.

This is very different from sound design, which is creative process. Everyone will be able to tell wobble bass from ambient pad no matter what listening enviroment they are in.

All in all, the trick is to make sound strong and translate well over many soundsystems without chaning its characteristics. You can do that in the synth or with additional effects. I'm not the best sound designer, usually I just pick the first good result and tweak it until it sits perfectly.

[Nowhk]

This is very different from sound design, which is creative process. Everyone will be able to tell wobble bass from ambient pad no matter what listening enviroment they are in.

Not sure about it! Timbre is made by Sound Design, and depends of the spectrum (for what I know, timbre = spectrum, considering also its envelope).

If a compressor (or a Speaker, ot whatever) add colors, it changes the spectrum, thus the timbre! Taking your example: you are right that I can distinguish between wobble bass and ambient pad, but what about different wobble basses? They differs due to sound design (they have two different timbres). How do you know if some characteristic you are hearing are included in sound design (so you can evalutate the good job of the producers and the sound itself) or are colors introduced by speakers/room (which you won't hear in another enviroment)?

This is what I'm worried about...

[PALU]

I think you are taking this too philosophically.

Practicly speaking - the differences in "color" made by - for example - different rooms or by different headphones are really small.

It's something that you have to work with - not be worried about. Sound design is the foundation. Of course there can be heavy processing that changes the original sound in a big way, but it's sound design too then - not just mixing.

If you take this too far then even it the same listening environment with the same listening chain just the biological differences between people make it subjective. No two humans hear the same sound.

[BertKoor]

Is this about how well a sound translates to other listening environments?

The answer is to perform this on a sound system and in a room that has no obvious flaws. So what you hear is not flattering and nice, but unforgiving in bringing out anomalies in your music. Most important is the frequency response: should be as flat as possible. No frequencies are too loud or too soft. So there should be no surprises. If on a different sound system your hihat is too loud, then everyone else's hihats are also too loud. If your saw lead is brutalised by a flawed cross-over that results in a dip at 2.4 kHz, then everyone else's mix is brutalised in the same way.

If this purely about the sound design, in my experience a far bigger factor is what else you bring into the mix. 20 years ago I had this guitar effects pedal board, and at home I had designed the most beautiful guitar sounds. When I brought it to the rehearsal room, the same patches that sounded full at home would sound very dull when all the other band members joined in. Modulation effects like chorus / flanger proved to be hit or miss: too much or too little.

So I had to do the sound design completely over again. Not judge a sound in isolation, but in the full context with all the other instruments added.

Would that (sort of) answer your question?

[whyterabbyt]

How do you know if some characteristic you are hearing are included in sound design (so you can evalutate the good job of the producers and the sound itself) or are colors introduced by speakers/room (which you won't hear in another enviroment)?

experience, and familiarity with your environment.

[Nowhk]

Practicly speaking - the differences in "color" made by - for example - different rooms or by different headphones are really small.

Clear, but it's spectrum as well I do know that when I hear a single track on a System A or on System B, the audio "stream" is different (considering it as spectrum), but inside the two listening I can separate into my mind and extrapolate the main "sound elements" provided by artist, and what is (probably) introduced by the system.

Maybe human earing (brain) got a sort of auto-filter that tend to ignore lower energy frequencies and idealize the "sound" working only on the strong part of it? It looks like psychoacoustic matter...

experience, and familiarity with your environment.

About my sound yes, it could be. But why I'm able to reckon (I think) sound design by other peoples? I don't know their environments

[Nowhk]

Reversing the question: why one would use plugins (or simply analog equipment) that natively adds warm to the sound if they introduce "colors" that will mess up the original idea? (I mean plugins that are intended to mix/master, so improve the "quality", not sound design).

Add WARM, if you are not in the Sound Design stage, should be BAD. Because it mess the original idea! Instead, every time I see a plugin (such as compressor) in the marketing, the more warm it adds the better it seems.

I really don't catch this...

Maybe, since editing audio will always introduce "somethings", it is better to introduce that as warm as possible, getting the whole listening more comfortable...

[PALU]

Clear, but it's spectrum as well I do know that when I hear a single track on a System A or on System B, the audio "stream" is different (considering it as spectrum), but inside the two listening I can separate into my mind and extrapolate the main "sound elements" provided by artist, and what is (probably) introduced by the system.

Maybe human earing (brain) got a sort of auto-filter that tend to ignore lower energy frequencies and idealize the "sound" working only on the strong part of it? It looks like psychoacoustic matter...

I think that BertKoor is on point. Your listening environment should be flat as possible to do sound design that will have a chance to translate well everywhere. You cannot be frozen in fear that your work won't translate well for every listener, because it just won't. When I listen to music on a pair of $3 headphones (which happened last week;) ) - I really cannot blame the musician or the mixing engineer or the sound designer that the music sounds like s**t.

You can work with a Standard that will be your ideal listening/playing environment - every other listener or other listening chain will be a deterioration from this "Golden Standard".

[PALU]

Reversing the question: why one would use plugins (or simply analog equipment) that natively adds warm to the sound if they introduce "colors" that will mess up the original idea? (I mean plugins that are intended to mix/master, so improve the "quality", not sound design).

Add WARM, if you are not in the Sound Design stage, should be BAD. Because it mess the original idea! Instead, every time I see a plugin (such as compressor) in the marketing, the more warm it adds the better it seems.

I really don't catch this...

But it's a different stage - it's not like the Sound Design is the only stage that you define sound. It changes in every stage. And whose to decide where the "original idea" ends? With sound design stage? With mixing? With mastering?

(and it's really not "more warm = better", that's just marketing mumbo-jumbo)

[DJ Warmonger]

Any room / soundsystem properties will affect the mix as a whole. If the room dampens highs, it will dampen them for FX, lead, drums and bass alike. But the good mix will preserve its balance still, it's only a matter of relation between sound components. There is no point to thinking about "sound design" in this context.

[whyterabbyt]

experience, and familiarity with your environment.

About my sound yes, it could be. But why I'm able to reckon (I think) sound design by other peoples? I don't know their environments

That's like asking 'but how do I know how salt will change the taste of my meal when I didnt cook it'.

[Nowhk]

But it's a different stage - it's not like the Sound Design is the only stage that you define sound.

Uhm? It's at the Sound Design stage that you define (design) sound. Mixing/Mastering are to balance/improve "space" for each sound elements (previously created), in a way that play good in different environments (if you are good)! But the original idea (sound element) ends after sound design.

i.e. If you hear an album with two different mixing/mastering (a repress, for example), I hear the same "sound", just it will sound better (or worse). But I still can catch the same "sound elements/ideas" from both.

Any room / soundsystem properties will affect the mix as a whole.
...
There is no point to thinking about "sound design" in this context.

Any "room / soundsystem" will affect the timbre as well, thus Sound Design.

[PALU]

But it's a different stage - it's not like the Sound Design is the only stage that you define sound.

Uhm? It's at the Sound Design stage that you define (design) sound. Mixing/Mastering are to balance/improve "space" for each sound elements (previously created), in a way that play good in different environments (if you are good)! But the original idea (sound element) ends after sound design.

Hmm... Maybe I just don't understand what do you mean by Sound Design... I thought it meant designing the sounds - like synth sounds. But you count the creative mixing here too? (like distorting the sounds, or side-chaining the reverb, or using glitch plugins on the original sound)?

I cannot agree with your thinking - you cannot improve sound in the mixing stage without making changes to the sound. And the "original idea" in the sound design stage is not something sacred that cannot be changed. It's the whole process that sculpts the sound.

[BertKoor]

every time I see a plugin (such as compressor) in the marketing, the more warm it adds the better it seems.

I really don't catch this...

I don't as well. I cannot tell you what a "warm" sound exactly is. It could be a form of subtle distortion, it could be attennuation of the high frequencies, could be anything. This is a subjective term used by marketing guys to let you click the "Add to Cart / Buy Now" button.