If every step adds "its own color" from production to listening, how would you reckon Sound Design?

[whyterabbyt]

"im making fresh pasta, but eventually a sauce gets added; so how do i know how my pasta should taste"

[Nowhk]

Hmm... Maybe I just don't understand what do you mean by Sound Design... I thought it meant designing the sounds - like synth sounds.

Yes, I mean this.

But you count the creative mixing here too? (like distorting the sounds, or side-chaining the reverb, or using glitch plugins on the original sound)?

That's Sound Design too, not mixing/mastering features.

Those are compressor, eq, reverb, and so on, in "modarated doses"; else you will end up managing sound design again (yourself said this before "Of course there can be heavy processing that changes the original sound in a big way, but it's sound design too then - not just mixing.").

"im making fresh pasta, but eventually a sauce gets added; so how do i know how my pasta should taste"

You got a nice example If you add sauce, I can get both tastes: the one of the fresh pasta and the one by sauce itself (which would improve/exalt or make worse the taste of the fresh pasta; nice correspondence with mixing/mastering).

But that's the point: here I can get both tastes and take a consideration myself: is the pasta good? Does the chef make a good job on making this fresh pasta?

On sound, how this would be possible? How do you separate original sound design elements (i.e. pasta) from the ones (such as speaker warmth, room, mixing tools, and the others) I've listed above (i.e. sauces)?

The brain just doesnt account low signal (freq) elements (mostly added when mixing sound, but also presents at the sound design stage) when idealizing the sound? I don't know, I'd like to hear your opinions

[PALU]

Hmm... Maybe I just don't understand what do you mean by Sound Design... I thought it meant designing the sounds - like synth sounds.

Yes, I mean this.

But you count the creative mixing here too? (like distorting the sounds, or side-chaining the reverb, or using glitch plugins on the original sound)?

That's Sound Design too, not mixing/mastering features.

Those are compressor, eq, reverb, and so on, in "modarated doses"; else you will end up managing sound design again (yourself said this before "Of course there can be heavy processing that changes the original sound in a big way, but it's sound design too then - not just mixing.").

I said that trying to understand your way of thinking.

If you think that mixing, mastering, DACs and room is messing with your synth presets - it's... how to say this... very unorthodox way of thinking...

Are you in some Sound Desing union or something? You are very strict about the division of stages/work.

[himalaya]

For what I'm learning in DSP and music design, every playback device/listening environment will produce a different sounding result, due to its own properties that are added to the sound.

Thus, the "timbre" of a sound you have created will change a bit every time you play it, period.
Once you have create "that sound" in the Sound Design stage (lets call is SOUND A), next there are many steps before the sound reach the listener. A few...

- the sound you made will be processed by mixing/mastering tools, which every one adds "its own color";
- every ADC/DAC (or even a final hardware mixer) adds "its own color";
- when you play on a fixed room/space, it adds "its own color";
- when you play on a fixed speaker, it adds "its own color";

So my question is: how do you reckon SOUND A if every time you play it in different environment (or mixed in different way) you would hear SOUND X (which is SOUND A + lots of colors)? Do you just guess it?

One one level, all of this doesn't matter, since this is taken for granted ie: a preset will sound different in different environments. You are dissecting it too much.

Your examples do not even mention the fact that our hearing may differ, so everyone will hear and perceive the sound in their own particular way, how different it's impossible to say. So how do I account for even this fundamental difference, before we even go into the sound of the room, speakers, etc? I can not.

Take this as an example: I make a deep, 'snappy' bass sound. It sounds great on my system, in my studio. It even sounds great in my friend's studio who has a different room and a different set of monitors, but then you play that bass in a big concert hall, and all of a sudden, the bass becomes undefined, 'wooly', washed out in the long reverb tail of the hall. What can I do? There is nothing I can do at the sound design stage to account for this situation. Are you stipulating in your opening post that something should be done about this? Nothing can be done, and the reason is, as I stated at the beginning: sounds will be received differently by everyone, and how people hear the sound will be affected by many external factors. It's how it is.

But there is another part to this.

If I make a sound in my studio, I may use lots of effects to set the sound in an artificial space and in the confines of my studio this sound is great. But, if I come to play this sound live, in a big concert hall, I may want to think about how to adjust the original effects in order to take account of the natural ambience of the hall. So I could reduce the reverb effect in the synth patch, maybe reduce delay feedback to keep the delay bouncing for a shorter time, etc. But these choices are about my decisions and are done according to my aesthetic preferences. How these will then be appreciated by the audience is anyone's guess. Will people perceive the sound as having not enough of room/delay effects, or will their listening experience be diminished by still too much reverb/delay on my sound? It does not matter. It's your judgement that matters. And this judgement comes through experience and learning. So you make the call how the patch should sound and get on with the music.

Make the sound in your studio, full in the knowledge that you have the experience to make a great sound, which will play well in your well treated room on your (well chosen) set of studio monitors. Then, after this sound leaves the confines of your studio....anything goes.

[Nowhk]

Are you in some Sound Desing union or something? You are very strict about the division of stages/work.

No, I'm just learning DSP

If you think that mixing, mastering, DACs and room is messing with your synth presets - it's... how to say this... very unorthodox way of thinking...

That's why I opened this topic. If you think in terms of envelope and overtones, its not unorthodox. Its what in fact happens, because lots of overtones generated (than converted) by your "presets" will be edited (even only changing the room where you play your music). It's all about frequencies

Will people perceive the sound as having not enough of room/delay effects, or will their listening experience be diminished by still too much reverb/delay on my sound? It does not matter. It's your judgement that matters. And this judgement comes through experience and learning. So you make the call how the patch should sound and get on with the music.

Make the sound in your studio, full in the knowledge that you have the experience to make a great sound, which will play well in your well treated room on your (well chosen) set of studio monitors. Then, after this sound leaves the confines of your studio....anything goes.

As misinterpreted by other (I guess), you are talking about "how" instead of "what" play. I'm not arguing that a fixed sound can play in infinite ways (and every person have his own taste, which prefer one room/mixing/speakers instead of others). Here I'm arguing about how people catch "what" play (i.e. what has been designed).

Let me do another basic example. Let say I'm making a Saw wave with the first synth I found in my arsenal. I take the basic SAW preset which generate the saw, and I add a bunch of overtones here and there (some low, some high) between harmonics. The resulting is "what" play, my sound element, a fixed timbre.

Now, let me send the recorded .wav to my friends, which will play in different speakers and rooms. Until some tests, he won't be able to get "what sound" in fact is, or it will with many difficults. It can't catch if those overtones I've added come from my sound design or from the current sound system "coloring". The same will apply to complex sounds.

So the "what" seems to be just a guess for a huge part of the sound: you could try to make it solid and strong, so the people could catch it faster and well defined as he can, but part of it would always be a guess, even after many plays. Do you agree?

Because, within my mind, now I'm thinking: whats the point of making music if nobody can get it? (of course, referring to texture/timbre, not rhythmic).

[himalaya]

Again, you are over analysing this and getting into a muddle with your "how" and "what".

The resulting is "what" play, my sound element, a fixed timbre.

and this "what" is all dependent on "how" people perceive, your "what".

The "what has been designed" depends on "how" people listen, and we have no control over that.

Now, let me send the recorded .wav to my friends, which will play in different speakers and rooms. Until some tests, he won't be able to get "what sound" in fact is, or it will with many difficults. It can't catch if those overtones I've added come from my sound design or from the current sound system "coloring". The same will apply to complex sounds.

If your friends are in a normal room, with normal hi-fi speakers (even those small bluetooth speakers will do nowadays) they will be able to hear your "harmonics" just fine. They won't need to do any tests (!) to find out what overtones you've 'put' into your sawtooth wave. They will just hear them. You'd need to be in a cave, a cathedral, some other weird room, maybe with a blown speaker tweeter, or maybe listen to music through your mobile phone speakers (and even these are getting better and better) to have your harmonics *not* come through properly.

So your question:

whats the point of making music if nobody can get it? (of course, referring to texture/timbre, not rhythmic).

is entirely frivolous. Sorry to say, it's mental gymnastics, ie; it doesn't matter. The texture and timbre will come through in the majority of normal household/studio situations.

You can treat this subject seriously though, and there are situations (beyond the concert hall that I've mentioned) where you can focus on sound design for a particular space. for example, clubs. If you make dance music, maybe drum&bass, you may want to pay attention to the sub-bass frequency spectrum, so that in the club, your track has the sufficient low-end 'punch' and definition. For this purpose, you would need to invest in a suitable monitoring system, and it's not unknown for some dance acts to actually double check their mixes on club-grade PA speakers. So here, the aim is to make sure that your audience actually hears your "overtones" as you intended them.

[Nowhk]

If your friends are in a normal room, with normal hi-fi speakers (even those small bluetooth speakers will do nowadays) they will be able to hear your "harmonics" just fine. They won't need to do any tests (!) to find out what overtones you've 'put' into your sawtooth wave. They will just hear them.

Why are you so sure about this? What if a standing wave reflection match some overtones and increase/decrease it? Maybe before it was low and inaudible, and become audible after the reflection that increase it. Or it was audible (but lower) and with reflection it slow down some dB, becoming inaudible. The timbre change in both case.

The same if my overtones were low enough and not audible on my "flat" monitor, and on Hi Fi component it exalt some bandwidth and those overtones become audible again.

And this talking about a simple/basic modified saw sound and only some wave reflections. Think about a complex one sound (processed by lots of distortion and FM). Results are very unpredictables... aren't they?

[PALU]

You are really overthinking this. If you worry about such details it has no sense to make music or sound at all - because it will be always ruined. Everything can change how you perceive sound - temperature, pressure, solar flares, mood, time of day. And all that change the Ideal Sacred Original Overtones. This is mental gymnastics as Himalaya said above.

[elxsound]

I have to be honest... Reading this is frustrating simply because quite a few people with real world experience designing sounds for a very long time (and some quite respected) have responded to your initial question but you keep circling back.

So my question to you is this...

Have you actually tried your own sound design? Have you actually sent this preset, or file to your friends?

Speaking hypothetically seems to be the problem in this conversation. You can ask this question to death (and the push for replies feels more like they're intended to write your paper for you), or you can start with your initial question and create a real world experiment to answer your question for you.

[Nowhk]

You are really overthinking this. If you worry about such details it has no sense to make music or sound at all - because it will be always ruined. Everything can change how you perceive sound - temperature, pressure, solar flares, mood, time of day. And all that change the Ideal Sacred Original Overtones. This is mental gymnastics as Himalaya said above.

Nope This is asking to you why, in fact, music works for human being, knowing this kind of details. But I guess that question should be posted on a psychoacoustic forum

Have you actually tried your own sound design? Have you actually sent this preset, or file to your friends?

I tried to myself, and even with me I can't hear perfectly the sound I've created (and I've in mind) on different sound systems. There's always somethings pop out...

[whyterabbyt]

If your friends are in a normal room, with normal hi-fi speakers (even those small bluetooth speakers will do nowadays) they will be able to hear your "harmonics" just fine. They won't need to do any tests (!) to find out what overtones you've 'put' into your sawtooth wave. They will just hear them.

Why are you so sure about this? What if a standing wave reflection match some overtones and increase/decrease it? Maybe before it was low and inaudible, and become audible after the reflection that increase it. Or it was audible (but lower) and with reflection it slow down some dB, becoming inaudible. The timbre change in both case.

The same if my overtones were low enough and not audible on my "flat" monitor, and on Hi Fi component it exalt some bandwidth and those overtones become audible again.

And this talking about a simple/basic modified saw sound and only some wave reflections. Think about a complex one sound (processed by lots of distortion and FM). Results are very unpredictables... aren't they?

when you're sitting on a train, and you toss a coin in the air, it doesnt matter that the train is travelling 120mph; the coin doesnt slam into your chest at ridiculous speed and injure you, because the coin travels consistently within the train.
it doesnt even matter if you change train; the coin still falls inside the train a consistent manner, even if its arc with respect to a fixed location on the ground has changed..

coin : your sound
train : the mix
120mph : coloration

[elxsound]

You are really overthinking this. If you worry about such details it has no sense to make music or sound at all - because it will be always ruined. Everything can change how you perceive sound - temperature, pressure, solar flares, mood, time of day. And all that change the Ideal Sacred Original Overtones. This is mental gymnastics as Himalaya said above.

Nope This is asking to you why, in fact, music works for human being, knowing this kind of details. But I guess that question should be posted on a psychoacoustic forum

Have you actually tried your own sound design? Have you actually sent this preset, or file to your friends?

I tried to myself, and even with me I can't hear perfectly the sound I've created (and I've in mind) on different sound systems. There's always somethings pop out...

Well, welcome to the design process... What do you want the listener to hear? Have you decided? Well, focus on making that a prominent feature OR accept that it may become lost as the sound degrades through multiple levels of possibly unforeseen processing (depending on why you designed it in the first place, and for what purpose).

In the visual arts (film, painting, photography, etc...) there are points of focus created intentionally. In sound this exists too.

[himalaya]

What if a standing wave reflection match some overtones and increase/decrease it? Maybe before it was low and inaudible, and become audible after the reflection that increase it. Or it was audible (but lower) and with reflection it slow down some dB, becoming inaudible. The timbre change in both case.

And that's fine. It doesn't matter. If you find yourself in such a room, where you have issues with room modes, then you have just that, issues with room modes and you hear various weird resonances (better address those issues with the room!). It's what I already referred to, from my previous post: "some other weird room".

Learn to let go. Most things are not under our control. You do the best you can, given your knowledge and surroundings and then after you release your sound, your music track, it will be perceived in a million different ways. And that's fine. Imagine something much worse than not hearing your "overtones". Once you release your sound, there will be people who will hate your "overtones", your sound, or your music track. They will hate it with a passion and will late you know about it. What would you do then? Let go. Do your best. Let go. Do even better. Let go. And don't forget to breath!

[Nowhk]

It's the whole process that sculpts the sound.

I think that this is the "secret" to think correctly about music.

The final product take care of each tasks of it, mixing and mastering included.
I always see a track (or song, call as you want) mainly as just one phase: sound design (talking about elements and creativity by artist).

Why? If a rock band of 1970 repress an album (in digital for example, with a new mastering, some spacing FXs and such), I always seen the product as the same, only "improved" in quality. And the same for all FXs added/removed to it, such as compressor or reverb or whatever: just some tools that has nothing to do with the track itself. I was wrong: they sculpts the sound and define a "fixed" track as well.

Two different (even if similar) "products" to enjoy... with lots of story and technologies applied to them. That's another aspect that I never considered listened to music... putting credits also on audio engineerings (which are part of the whole job).

Don't judge me

[Aleatoriac]

Once you release your sound, there will be people who will hate your "overtones", your sound, or your music track. They will hate it with a passion and will late you know about it. What would you do then?

[/quote]

When that happens, I make more of the same kinds of sounds. More worserer.