KVR Audio

Synthman2000 · Post by **Synthman2000** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:28 pm

If you are not finishing a single one, there is a bit of a problem in my humble opinion. I don't know what the problem is though.

The approach I take is generally to build something up 4 mins into the timeline thereabouts 32-48 bars or so, adding what I think is something good each time. I will sometimes look at it and think WTF is that mess. Then it is time to take away or at least spread it out so it is not a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees.

I work out what the is the fundamental backbone of the track and then if things are not working with that root of the track it is nudged down below and muted (or changed/ or deleted depending on my judgement). I then add more elements as required and usually with a bit of luck, focus and self critical discretion the new things added are with greater focus than at the earlier stage.

Does this make any sense/ resonate with anyone elses approach ?
So far it seems to work for me but each new track has its own deviation from this exact flow. Sometimes it seems easier to create and sometimes less so and yet it does not seem to determine how much I like the end results once it is complete. There is a certain level of organic process that I do not fight against because I don't set a time limit for the process/completion. It's ready when I deem it good enough to be ready. I do not start anything new during this process, it is a case of hammering and chiselling away at what is already there rather than saving this nice bit and that nice bit.

This seems to work reasonably well so far and of course there is no right or wrong but this approach ends up with me finishing tracks, at least so far. I think keeping your attention span is quite important with this approach and that won't be for everyone.

I am interested to know what peoples track counts are like for psy ? Generally I have about 40-50 + effects return channels so far
in my productions. I have read about 100-150+ instrument/audio tracks and when I hear the complexity of some productions I don't doubt it. Not that more channels means better music of course.

All rather general stuff and nothing specific, I appreciate that.

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:24 pm

Yet another very important skill is to cut away the parts which may sound good per se but dont fit the rest of the track. This is something i have yet to master. For me its like cutting away my own balls by my own hand

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:49 pm

Synthman2000 wrote:If you are not finishing a single one, there is a bit of a problem in my humble opinion. I don't know what the problem is though.

I have adhd. Brings some tiny challenges

Synthman2000 wrote:I am interested to know what peoples track counts are like for psy ? Generally I have about 40-50 + effects return channels so far
in my productions. I have read about 100-150+ instrument/audio tracks and when I hear the complexity of some productions I don't doubt it. Not that more channels means better music of course.

All rather general stuff and nothing specific, I appreciate that.

Hmm.. 4-10 tracks for drums/percussion and 1-2 basslines and 3-10 (shared between) different leads, pads, rhytmic synth stuff..

recursive one wrote:Yet another very important skill is to cut away the parts which may sound good per se but dont fit the rest of the track. For me its like cutting away my own balls by my own hand

I feel you

I usually make another project for that sounds and start working on that. Then I have another KING idea and make another project and start working on that and..

Synthman2000 · Post by **Synthman2000** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:57 pm

recursive one wrote:Yet another very important skill is to cut away the parts which may sound good per se but dont fit the rest of the track. This is something i have yet to master. For me its like cutting away my own balls by my own hand

This made me laugh.

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: track count

This is an excellent track by Lejurai

https://soundcloud.com/distortedhorizon ... st-strobes

I think it sounds anything but empty or simplistic. Yet it has only three synths except for the bass and percussion, as confrimed by Lejurai himself. Three synths. Three (3). I realised this only when I started to listen to the track very closely to identify the sound which I like the most.

That's something to learn from him I think.

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:09 pm

Synthman2000 wrote:
recursive one wrote:Yet another very important skill is to cut away the parts which may sound good per se but dont fit the rest of the track. This is something i have yet to master. For me its like cutting away my own balls by my own hand
This made me laugh.

Yes, it may sound somehow ironic or not serious but it's actually a problem at least for me, some of my tracks may have smooth transitions and everything seems to be in place but they don't tell a story and are more like a showcase of different sounds and melodies. It takes time to identify the problematic parts which break the flow cause they don't sound problematic (or at least more problematic than the others) per se

.jon · Post by **.jon** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:33 pm

recursive one wrote: This perfectly describes me, I'm obsessed with plugins, synths, how to make this sound and how to make that sound. Since I'm still not very fluent in psy language, this really gets in my way. Like I've learned how to make this squelch or that FM fart but now I have to ogranize them into a track and this is where I'm lost. Somehow I managed to make better tracks when I had less techncial knowledge.

Well, your tracks impressed me with high production values and intricate details, and there were many sounds that made me think "wow, well done, this is an interesting flavor". I hope you don't think too much about the "language of psy"- a huge problem that has put me away from listening to modern psy is the overwhelming formulaic standardisation.

Mind you my first contact with psy was Suomi sound, Texas Faggot, Haltiya, Squaremeat and such- there were no rules these guys followed, or didn't break. Some of it was crap tbh, but still the essence of actual psychedelia was strong. Keep it free, keep developing your own language!

Anyways, this thread inspired me to try my hand at psy, I had an absolute blast after years of deep ambient and slow techno stuff, high tempo and freedom of melodies are awesome and there's so much to learn

Unfortunately I ran into the track limit of my temporary DAW of choice, Live Lite, and now I really need to make up my mind between Live and Bitwig. I can't figure out a workaround to finish the track, damnit.

Taika-Kim · Post by **Taika-Kim** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:01 pm

Felix, Hi

We met in Israel a few years ago at Guy's party, cool to see you here too

I can relate to that, I also started around 1998/9 with trackers, just did music for fun for several years before it kind of erupted by itself... I played my first gig abroad in 2006 and those tunes were from 2004 or so, so it took 5-6 years for me too to start feeling comfortable with writing.

Anyway, about finishing tracks: it's a very good advice to just try to finish everything you start. That build discipline, and teaches both a good working routine and a mind to get around obstacles. And you will end up with finished tracks to play, obviously

I also absolutely agree about finding your own voice. It helps to be a bit isolated, I think the Internet is averaging things too much. Remember, before 2000 people really did not use the internet, and the scenes were more isolated which kind of promoted variety when influences didn't travel so fast.

The hardest is to try to pass any feedback, both positive and negative, and just keep doing what naturally comes from inside. It's really tempting to start to do specific things you know people like, or let other artists that you like direct your sound too much.

I have been now doing trance for around 18 years, and only in the last five years or so I started feeling completely comfortable about creating tracks. So don't hurry and despair, you have all the time in the world, and if you can keep a clear mind without expectations, and just enjoy the creation as it is now, you will always be as good as need be

About Tracks, I think I have between 20 and 30 tracks usually for a project. Incidentally, there's still a possibility to order my full discography with full stems for many tracks, if you aren interested in seeing how suomi-goa is structured

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aave ... -usb-music#/

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:32 pm

.jon wrote: Well, your tracks impressed me with high production values and intricate details, and there were many sounds that made me think "wow, well done, this is an interesting flavor". I hope you don't think too much about the "language of psy"- a huge problem that has put me away from listening to modern psy is the overwhelming formulaic standardisation.

I'm really happy to read that

But actually I didn't want to say by this language analogy that I'm aiming at exactly copying someone else or learning how to make tracks by formulas, I rather meant the ability to convey my emotions to people who have an ear for psytrance (well, as English is not my native language, as I'm writing this I'm thinking "will people understand what I'm trying to say at all?" and basically the same thing sometimes happens when I'm writing music).

But truth to be told many of my sounds and ideas came into life when I was trying to copy someone's else sounds and ideas - i failed at that but made my own things instead. Maybe it has something to do with the lack of self-confidence, some of the beginners tend to think like "[well-known producer name] does X and Y so if I do X and Y in exactly the same way I can at least say that I'm no worse than him (especially given that he also has copied his X and Y from someone else)" - this is NOT what I'm actually thinking but maybe it's still here at some subconscious level.

.jon wrote: Mind you my first contact with psy was Suomi sound, Texas Faggot, Haltiya, Squaremeat and such- there were no rules these guys followed, or didn't break. Some of it was crap tbh, but still the essence of actual psychedelia was strong. Keep it free, keep developing your own language!

Suomi can be way too freefrom so that it may stop making any sence whatsoever at some point, but there are some true gems in this subgenre, sure.

The first psytrance track I've ever heard was this one and it still gives me goosebumps

.jon wrote: Unfortunately I ran into the track limit of my temporary DAW of choice, Live Lite, and now I really need to make up my mind between Live and Bitwig.

I can't help you with this choise as I own neither of them but I guess upgrading to bigger version of what you already know how to use would make more sence.

Taika-Kim wrote: The hardest is to try to pass any feedback, both positive and negative, and just keep doing what naturally comes from inside. It's really tempting to start to do specific things you know people like, or let other artists that you like direct your sound too much.

This. Very well said.

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:01 pm

recursive one wrote:That's something to learn from him I think.

You make me blush

But generally, if the song/section doesn't need more than synthline or two.. Why should I force there more? Softly modulated delay and reverb fills empty spaces nicely IMO. Anyone ever heard acidhouse?

.jon wrote:..modern psy is the overwhelming formulaic standardisation.

Is there some rules that should be followed?

.jon wrote:..Suomi sound..there were no rules these guys followed, or didn't break. Some of it was crap tbh..

I'm from Finland

.jon wrote:Anyways, this thread inspired me to try my hand at psy, I had an absolute blast after years of deep ambient and slow techno stuff, high tempo and freedom of melodies are awesome and there's so much to learn
Unfortunately I ran into the track limit of my temporary DAW of choice, Live Lite, and now I really need to make up my mind between Live and Bitwig. I can't figure out a workaround to finish the track, damnit.

Awesome

My vote would go to Bitwig since it's more bang for buck (and you can find it dirt cheap from marketplace), and it has more freedom to do stuff different ways.. Better routing options.. One more view to work with.. But it has more bugs and you need to have some spectrum analyzer since BWS doesn't have any built in.
How much have you used it?

And if you don't need the clip view, of course we have this cheap basic tool.. Reaper

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:06 pm

And for that workaround.. If you're ok with bouncing and using loops of what you've made, the drummachine can hold a pile of simplers.

For example: make a bassline, bounce it, toss it in to the drum machine. You can have.. 16?.. bass loops in that DM and you still have pile of tracks to make the same thing for drums and leads and fx and...

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:13 pm

viewtopic.php?t=475147

BWS 140$.. Very nice price IMO.

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:51 pm

I was in the shower and came to think that..

What would you people think about some occasional challenges?

Like for example "make a song using only 2 synth tracks per section"

3 days time and people who take this challenge, could maybe post the result in here and have a conversation about the experience?

recursive one · Post by **recursive one** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:03 pm

Then you will surely win, you cheater!

Why not?

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:08 pm

recursive one wrote:Then you will surely win, you cheater!

Why not?

In these challenges everyone is a winner

THE Psytrance thread