DUNE2 vs Sylenth1

[Gamma-UT]

I've clipped a very short sample from Ajja's Bebopper...

Nice track, although not my kind of psy. No idea what he may use for the bass but it sounds good, sure.

I think it might be FM at work. Something that gives you phase and feedback control over individual oscillators seems to be one way of getting there, particularly for getting that fast blip at the start. In Ableton's Operator, I've tried a 4-op layout of two stacks of FM oscillators (i.e. the classic sawtooth structure but doubled up) and that seems to get close without having to invoke resampling. Plus you have the benefit of being able to control the modulating oscillator amplitude to vary timbre as the track progresses.

[fluffy_little_something]

Something like this is pretty much the most extreme self-oscillation thingy I can imagine myself using, and only for a few seconds, like in an intro.

https://app.box.com/s/c29kdn86bcsyvgqc3p5l629d7al24b6k

[recursive one]

Should it be possible to emulate 2-operator FM (carrier/modulator) via Dune2 modmatrix? What do I do? Select one oscillator as a mod source, select the pitch of another oscillator as the target and set the modulation rate to audio rate?

[Cinebient]

Should it be possible to emulate 2-operator FM (carrier/modulator) via Dune2 modmatrix? What do I do? Select one oscillator as a mod source, select the pitch of another oscillator as the target and set the modulation rate to audio rate?

You can do that.

[recursive one]

I've clipped a very short sample from Ajja's Bebopper...

Nice track, although not my kind of psy. No idea what he may use for the bass but it sounds good, sure.

I think it might be FM at work. Something that gives you phase and feedback control over individual oscillators seems to be one way of getting there, particularly for getting that fast blip at the start. In Ableton's Operator, I've tried a 4-op layout of two stacks of FM oscillators (i.e. the classic sawtooth structure but doubled up) and that seems to get close without having to invoke resampling. Plus you have the benefit of being able to control the modulating oscillator amplitude to vary timbre as the track progresses.

Thanks, I actually never thought about FM synths as the source of psy-bass at all. I don't have Ableton but have FM8 i guess it could be replicated there?

[chk071]

Something like this is pretty much the most extreme self-oscillation thingy I can imagine myself using, and only for a few seconds, like in an intro.

https://app.box.com/s/c29kdn86bcsyvgqc3p5l629d7al24b6k

Actually, zips, bleeps, and other high resonance sounds are pretty useful for the music i'm liking (ambient, spacebient, even for trance, or deep house music), so, it's really useful to have a synth which does the analog thing pretty good. For me, that's Monark, Tyrell N6, Charlatan, or also Diversion. If you don't need such sounds, fair enough. Sylenth1 is a big thing in Trance or EDM, and those kind of sounds aren't too prominent there either. It is not like it couldn't do such sounds per se anyway. It's just that they're really great sounding with close to real analog behavior of the filter, IMO.

[egbert101]

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[Cinebient]

Indeed you can get vowel, comb filter, adding harmonics and similar things due to audio rate modulation.
Now think that you have 8 layers in Dune with 3 OSC each and sync on OSC 1-2 as well up to 32 unison voices, FM, wavetables etc.
Dune 2 can be the wildest "modular" without having to use 100 modules and OSC´s
But the filter itself are not my prefered for it.
I still find the filter, resonance behavier and audio rate modulation best in the Moog Model 15 app followed by the P900 modular plug-in.
I don´t know but the Moog app has some magic (or Moog MOJO) if you know how to route it proper (and on top a 4 voice MPE like style to play).
The most extrem (but not always most beautiful for me) filter resonance in software might me Repro-1 but it´s of course limited in a mono synth without too many modulation possibilities.
But yeah, Dune 2 is like a giant (semi) modular in a simpler synth GUI packed.
So if i wanted to use a 32 unison detuned OSC as modulator i would have to use 32 OSC modules inside a modular. And then i also can modulate this unison detuned OSC with another unison detuned wavetable etc.......but then we are already in the matrix.

[gentleclockdivider]

Should it be possible to emulate 2-operator FM (carrier/modulator) via Dune2 modmatrix? What do I do? Select one oscillator as a mod source, select the pitch of another oscillator as the target and set the modulation rate to audio rate?

Yes , but you will get pitch modulation at audio rate ( like in microtonic --->lfo 2 khz )
Dune 2 is great for creating drum sounds ..
If you want fm ( phase modulation ) , you'll have to use the fm osc .
Don't forget to set up mod.rate to ' audio rate ' in dune's preferences.

[Ingonator]

At extreme settings like self-oscillation or filter FM most "old" non-zdf filters will craeate artifacts or unwanted noise.

For example old Minimoog emulations at pure filter self-oscillation without the Oscs used (if those old plugins are even capable of this...) create a noisy output while with a proper zero delay feedback filter like e.g. the Minimoog in Diva, Monark and The Legend create a more or ess pure Sinewave without noise.
Filter FM in the old plugins could sound not so nice too or at least not like in the real thing.

Overall zero-delay feedback filters seem to sound closer to real analog filter, also at extreme settings.

FWIW in DUNE 2 you could use all 3 Oscs as a mod source for the Cutoff to create Filter FM.

Was just trying self-oscillation in S1, it does pretty well without 0df filters, sings like a bird when modulating the sine wave

Indeed not all non zero delay feedback filter produce noise at self-oscillation while with filter FM it is even more liekly taht you get unwanted noise or artifacts.

One example with the noise at self-oscillation is Arturia Mini V3, even with the updated filter. At Cutoff around 2500 Hz and higher this produces quite a lot of noise which increases with a higher frequency.
This should not happen with Minimoog based synths with zero delay feedback filters like e.g. The Legend, Monark or Diva.
It also does not happen with two real analog monosynths i got here (Waldorf Pulse 2 + Novation Bass Station II).

[Cinebient]

What i miss in Dune 2 is audio rate modulation for FX like the delay time or feedback.
But it doesn´t work with OSC as modulator

[zerocrossing]

At extreme settings like self-oscillation or filter FM most "old" non-zdf filters will craeate artifacts or unwanted noise.

For example old Minimoog emulations at pure filter self-oscillation without the Oscs used (if those old plugins are even capable of this...) create a noisy output while with a proper zero delay feedback filter like e.g. the Minimoog in Diva, Monark and The Legend create a more or ess pure Sinewave without noise.
Filter FM in the old plugins could sound not so nice too or at least not like in the real thing.

Overall zero-delay feedback filters seem to sound closer to real analog filter, also at extreme settings.

FWIW in DUNE 2 you could use all 3 Oscs as a mod source for the Cutoff to create Filter FM.

Was just trying self-oscillation in S1, it does pretty well without 0df filters, sings like a bird when modulating the sine wave

Indeed not all non zero delay feedback filter produce noise at self-oscillation while with filter FM it is even more liekly taht you get unwanted noise or artifacts.

One example with the noise at self-oscillation is Arturia Mini V3, even with the updated filter. At Cutoff around 2500 Hz and higher this produces quite a lot of noise which increases with a higher frequency.
This should not happen with Minimoog based synths with zero delay feedback filters like e.g. The Legend, Monark or Diva.
It also does not happen with two real analog monosynths i got here (Waldorf Pulse 2 + Novation Bass Station II).

Mini V's a joke compared to the above mentioned giants when doing ARM tricks. It can sound good in some situations, but it's real strength IMO is that it gives a lot of voices for not much CPU use. Sylenth1 is good on that front as well.

To me, Dune is the best software synth out there that has both wavetable oscillators and good sounding audio rate modulation. I also happen to like the sound of its unison engine. The UI is a little counter intuitive, but once you learn it, it's good. We can talk about comparisons to Sylenth1 all we want, but the truth is the feature sets are really too different for a meaningful conversation to occur.

[Cinebient]

I tryed to get similar results in terms of audio rate modulation (as far as possible) now and compared Dune 2 with Moog Model 15 and P900 again.....i was wrong.
While i like the filters more in P900 (which are mainly an emulation of an hardware which was build after Moog hardware...or so... but sounds awesome) and Model 15 more (but here is just the one while P900 offers 4 different i think).
I would give P900 the first place, followed by Dune 2 and then Model 15 (but i love that you can use external audio as source too).
I can´t compare that to the others modulars or synths which can use OSC as modulation source (indeed, which other synths does this....proper?).
But with all the FX on top, the arp, the best unison engine i´m aware off Dune 2 is really a powerhouse (i just which for the Legend Moog filter and maybe a few other on top and an sample OSC) and reminded me it´s still the best non-hybrid synth out there for me.
It´s just sad that it´s another more EDM market tool.
None (or very few) of the default patches takes advance of the audio rate modulation stuff and crazy modulation options.
I guess there is no market but i will make a free bank full of this crap soon.
I once sold Dune 2 but couldn´t live without it and bought it back.....good choice!

[Ingonator]

We can talk about comparisons to Sylenth1 all we want, but the truth is the feature sets are really too different for a meaningful conversation to occur.

Actually this was what i was talking about a few pages ago. It is quite easy to do stuff in DUNE 2.5 not possible with Sylenth1 where one of those features is the wavetables. Talking about that the comparison indeed becomes pointless.

[fluffy_little_something]

I can´t compare that to the others modulars or synths which can use OSC as modulation source (indeed, which other synths does this....proper?).

Predator, I think.