Behringer Analog Synth

[SLiC]

I don't think there is any doubt Behringer is going to be a major player in the synth market. The rack version is on the way and it looks like their analogue drum machines(s) are also quite far on. I use an X32 Producer and I have been nothing but impressed with Behringer, the free updates on the X32 have been incredible (if it was Roland they would have charged for all the extra FX plugs ins, individually!)

Uli Beringer is actively posting over at gearslutz asking what people want in/from a synth/drum machine....he is obviously knowledgeable and passionate about synths, he comes from the position of a player and someone who started with DIY etc. I hope he gets in to the Eurorack market as the pricing their is getting ridiculous!

[idfpower]

Eh? Where did he repeatedly states that this was "the whole point"?

Not here and not on Gearslutz either afaik, where he just revealed the price at 999 bucks at some point, which doesn't make it "the point".

My memory may fail me of course, so you are welcome to correct me by pointing me to one of the posts where he repeats this as the goal of the whole venture.

The whole thing started because ppl (poly manufacturers included) thought it's impossible to make a full blown poly under 1k. But it doesn't matter - ppl seem ok to pay more so who cares

[IncarnateX]

The whole thing started because ppl (poly manufacturers included) thought it's impossible to make a full blown poly under 1k.

Haven't heard that version of the story before, so I have a hard time suspending disbelief here. Uli told a sweet story at Gearslutz how it all started with his team. They wanted to give him a synth (oh, he must be such a nice guys for his team to do that). First they thought of making a copy of the Juno 106 but then the features just kept coming to their minds and it all grew. He may have said that he wanted to provide an affordable analog polysynth synth to the people (as the saint he is) but never said anything about that affordable would mean below 1000 bucks and that this was the whole point of making it. I think your memory is playing tricks on you here.

[transmetropolitan]

VAT is tax and has nothing to do with the companies. The base price is the same.

This is also why you can easily go to a doctor when you are sick.

This is pretty patronising.

Obviously it's a tax, obviously the tax goes to government not the company - but VAT is also not a surprise for the company is it? It's not like they didn't know they had to charge it.

The point is that the company's own publicity has led people to think this was going to come in at a significantly lower price point. All the company needed to do was to be a little more transparent about this a little earlier. It's slightly disappointing that they've chosen to ride their own hype instead.

[chk071]

Well, if they announced that it'll be below a thousand DOLLARS, then i see nothing wrong with that.

[sjm]

VAT is tax and has nothing to do with the companies. The base price is the same.

This is also why you can easily go to a doctor when you are sick.

Obviously it's a tax, obviously the tax goes to government not the company - but VAT is also not a surprise for the company is it? It's not like they didn't know they had to charge it.

Yes, but there is no global VAT/sales tax rate. It depends on where you are, so they just did the standard thing of quoting the price excl. VAT. Of course the price is going to vary from country to country based on the tax rate, but that's outside of Behringer's control and they aren't going to list the price in 100 currencies. How else would you propose they handle it, especially when professionals are going to be buying them without VAT? So they quoted the price they will be selling them for without those factors that are outside of their control.

It's hardly shady nor surprising in context. I know it might be something that people hadn't thought to factor in, but to feel somehow intentionally misled because Behringer didn't tailor their announcement to the specific tax rate of the country you live in or your hobbyist status is over the top.

And don't forget that in some countries, it's standard practice to list the price of all goods (even consumer goods) without tax. So it's really not a conspiracy.


Or to put it another way, they didn't intentionally mislead people, but people understandably misintepreted what they said.

Edit: The original question was how is USD 999 = EUR 1199, and the answer is that the Thoman (EUR) price includes tax at ~20% (i.e. EUR 200) and the USD price is without tax. If Thomann listed the price without tax, it would be EUR 999 as well (give or take a few cents). So you have to compare USD 999 with EUR 999.

[idfpower]

@sjm : the manufacturer's suggested price is (usually) the top price. You won't see the retailers going above it - quite the opposite. And last time I've checked, Behringer was not an US company, so they know how end prices work in EU very well. To be clear: I'm not blaming B for upping the price, but for not controlling their retailers.

@IncarnateX : the story goes like this:
1. Uli says states in an interview that poly manufacturers are selling their synths at a far higher number simply because of the brand name, and that a full poly can be made for a fraction of the cost. Noobody took him seriously.
2. Korg is about to release the Arp Odyssey, around 1K price tag. In comes Behringer, asking ppl if they'd be interested in a B version, with patch memory and full keys, for around 500$? Some said it would be cool, lots of ppl kept laughing at B and considered their move an attempt to steal Korg's thunder.
3. Many months later (while ppl kept calling B's offer "vaporwave"), N releases the first DM teaser. Since the only glimpse of a synth in that video looked like their Motor controller, wa called bs by a lot of ppl. But multiple independent sources baked them up, sayng they were indeed building their own 1st synthesizer.
4. Fast forward to DM12 promo campaign: Uli said repeatedly they were aiming to release the synth at an absolute rock bottom price. After intense negotiations with their component providers, they've managed to settle the end price of a DM unit at 999. For this they'd need to sell at least 30K units - but that's another story. But that 999 price tag was no accident, or random end result, it was planned from get go. You see, when ppl kept asking for various other stuff to be implemented, especially multitimbrality, Uli said it was simply not possible for the price tag they were aiming for. This was also suggested by some folks that had a bit of an inside B intel.

FWIW.

[IncarnateX]

Okay, @idfpower. I know parts of that story as well, but that was still not what Uli himself "repeatedly" claimed in the Gearslutz's thread as far as the point with the synth concerns. Here is his own fairytale. Yours are deducted from the long time perspective and may be closer to the actual truth as such, I'll give you that. Enjoy the BS.

The synthesizer was initially considered a pure "labor of love" project as we had no commercial aspirations. However what was considered a simple synth project, got completely out of hand and sound capabilities plus features got added on a weekly basis.
People constantly heard me say: "Pete, we got to stop this now", but you can imagine that it had little impact and the team kept on adding and adding. I can't even remember how many front panel design iterations we went through and I believe the guys are still adding more features as we speak - of course without telling me:-).

Because the team wanted to fulfill my dream and build me a synthesizer, I had no choice than to let them go crazy and I am afraid this is exactly what happened:-).
At the same time, the boys also wanted to have some fun with the marketing so please forgive them for the teasers. I am happy to take the blame!

I like to take the opportunity to thank Pete Sadler, Rob Belcham and the rest of the Midas team from the bottom of my heart for what they have done for me.
Hopefully some more people out there will love the synth as much as I do.

I guess there are no dry eyes at this point.

And as far as the pricing goes, here is what he said when people started to dream about a 500$ price tag:

Because of the huge demand for the DeepMind12, we went back to our component suppliers and asked for a higher discount in return for higher purchase volumes. We then approached our distribution partners again and asked what their orders would be, if we would lower pricing. We did this a few rounds until we reached rock bottom pricing. And that’s where we are now.

During the development of the DeepMind12, we involved a lot of synthesizer experts, producers, musicians but also synth magazines. Of course, we were constantly asked what the price would be, but at the same time repeatedly told not to make it too affordable as otherwise the public perception of the instrument would be impacted.
Since the competition sits around US$ 2,000, the general recommendation was not to offer it below US$ 1,500 and everyone would be happy.

So his rock bottom price is anything below 1500 if any and not 1000. He is playing it safe here.

Not that it really matters, but just to have a conversation about something. I couldn't justify buying any synth as this price anyway according to my budget and priorities.

[Daags]

I don't think there is any doubt Behringer is going to be a major player in the synth market. The rack version is on the way and it looks like their analogue drum machines(s) are also quite far on.

would you mind linking me to any source(s)/threads where this is being discussed in (greater) detail ? particularly the analogue drum machines ... this is news to me, and the fact they are quite far in development ? wow. i need to lurk more at wherever it is this is being covered. (somewhere on gearslutz i guess?)

[idfpower]

would you mind linking me to any source(s)/threads where this is being discussed in (greater) detail ? particularly the analogue drum machines ... this is news to me, and the fact they are quite far in development ? wow. i need to lurk more at wherever it is this is being covered. (somewhere on gearslutz i guess?)

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... ine-7.html

[idfpower]

So his rock bottom price is anything below 1500 if any and not 1000. He is playing it safe here.

Not that it really matters, but just to have a conversation about something. I couldn't justify buying any synth as this price anyway according to my budget and priorities.

Well like I said the "under 1K price tag" was suggested by some other guys 'in the know' prior to the official announcement. That was prolly their target, but they were unsure whether they'd be actually able to hit the mark or not. Their main problem was that they must sell a truckload of DMs in order to make profit, but the company's reputation was rubbish - at least around GS, precisely because of their history of making cheap knockoffs. Just a year ago, ppl avoided the B name like the plague, and even the folks using their gear were marching on the utilitarian aspect of it, rather than trying to defend the brand. IMO the really remarkable thing Uli managed to do was turning around ppl's opinion regarding his company (now ppl ask them openly to clone this or that - hilarious). And thus DM12 is prolly to them more than just their entry ticket into the synth world - it's a statement.

Now I do have several Behringer products and planning on getting a couple more (an UMC 1820 and FX 2000 - prossibly ADA 8200 and a V-Amp Pro Bass as well), but I went for B simply because of budget limitations. I don't care that much about the brand name on the unit. If it fits my needs and budget, it's ok. As far as synths go, my top limit is around 300 Euros, and I've yet to pay in full for a synth. Everything I have I got cheap as used or at big discounts. My next synths will prolly be a MiniNova and a Monologue - ad that's about it, since I don't have space for any other synth (apart from maybe some small gadgets). I would have loved to get a DM and use it both as sound bank and master controller, but it's not worth considering the price tag. I'm not a keyboard player so I really don't need a 4 octave full keybed nor 12 voices since I generally dislike pads and I only have 10 fingers So I'm waiting for their version of a 25 keys mono - for a regular B price (which mean lower than Monologue). Then we might be in business

[IncarnateX]

IMO the really remarkable thing Uli managed to do was turning around ppl's opinion regarding his company (now ppl ask them openly to clone this or that - hilarious).

Yes the collective amnesia is rather stunning, though it only takes a wiki search to recall:

Legal cases
In June 1997, Mackie accused Behringer of trademark and trade dress infringement, and brought suit seeking $327M in damages[14][18] but such claims were later rejected by the court. In their suit, Mackie said that Behringer had a history of copying products by other manufacturers and selling them as their own.[19] The Mackie suit detailed an instance, in which Behringer was sued by Aphex Systems for copying the Aural Exciter Type F—in that case Aphex Systems won 690,000 Deutsche Mark.[19] The Mackie suit also mentioned similar cases filed by BBE, dbx and Drawmer.[19] On 30 November 1999, the U.S. District Court in Seattle, Washington, dismissed Mackie claims that Behringer had infringed on Mackie copyrights with its MX 8000 mixer, noting that circuit schematics are not covered by copyright laws.[20][21][22]

In 2005, Roland Corporation sued to enforce Roland's trade dress, trademark, and other intellectual property rights with regard to Behringer's recently released guitar pedals.[23] The two companies came to a confidential settlement in 2006 after Behringer changed their designs.[24]

In 2009 Peavey Electronics Corp. filed two lawsuits against various companies under Behringer/Music Group umbrella for patent infringement, federal and common law trademark infringement, false designation of origin, trademark dilution and unfair competition.[25] In 2011 The Music Group filed a lawsuit against Peavey for "false advertising, false patent marking and unfair competition".[26]

That said, I am guilty as well in so far that this has never prevented me from buying Behringer mixers and effect units. At the end of the day, no company are innocent within such industries, some are just more cynical than others and some are better at hiding their sins.

[sjm]

@sjm : the manufacturer's suggested price is (usually) the top price. You won't see the retailers going above it - quite the opposite. And last time I've checked, Behringer was not an US company, so they know how end prices work in EU very well. To be clear: I'm not blaming B for upping the price, but for not controlling their retailers.

Yes, that's exactly the misunderstanding. Behringer didn't "up the price", the price is what it is (999), and its the same the world over. The tax is what it is (~20% in the EU, but even here it differs from country to country; a few percent depending on your US state, 0 if you are buying it as a professional). I have no idea who the source was (though I remember reading it myself), but again, why would Behringer tell this person the price of the synth + tax in your specific country, especially if the person asking was based, say, in the US, where prices don't include tax even in shops. It would just be weird and insular of them to do so.

So there is no raising of the price going on, just a disappointment that the price they quoted was the price excl. sales tax/VAT. Of course they know you pay tax on it, but they don't know how much: this wasn't an announcement for you alone.

So yeah, shame it's more than 1k for the prosumer, but easily understandable why that was the price they quoted.

[AnX]

In stock,€1199

https://www.thomann.de/de/behringer_deepmind12.htm

UK is £1020 at Thomann, so thats pretty close. Im sure some UK outlets will lose the VAT and bring it down to £999. Look like its just Europe that will be off the 999 mark by a big margin.

[idfpower]

I have no idea who the source was (though I remember reading it myself), but again, why would Behringer tell this person the price of the synth + tax in your specific country, especially if the person asking was based, say, in the US, where prices don't include tax even in shops. It would just be weird and insular of them to do so.

IIRC one source was from Amazona.de - they did the initial interview with the Midas engineers and also posted the first photos of Dm12 preproduction unit. That's why ppl considered them a reliable source.