New to Windows 10: advice for stopping updates, data collection, ads,etc

[chk071]

i'm not saying i want "un-personalized" Microsoft services, i want nothing to do with those services in the first place, and i would certainly like to turn off the ads and other crapware like Cortana. and i don't want to delve into registry hacks, turn off services or otherwise do it all manually, so i'm waiting for someone to come up with an all-in-one tool (legitimate or otherwise, i wouldn't much care if usage of such tool would violate the DMCA or some such) to do it all for me.

Far as i'm concerned, when you're not logged in with a Microsoft account, but with a "local account", there's not much what you have to fear in terms of privacy, or data collection. You can completely turn off Cortana, and other stuff. There are loads of settings in that regard in the system settings.

that's great to hear, thanks for the pointer. i'll probably give Windows 10 a run in a virtual machine before i make my decision to upgrade anyway, but if what you're saying is true, i may bite the bullet sooner rather than later.

Of course, i can't tell what is happening below the surface, but, you can turn on or off a lot of things, concerning collection of data (which is mostly for use of personalization, and, generally, to improve apps anyway... also in Cortana), standpoint, and other stuff, and there are loads of EULA's too, which explain what Microsoft do with the data (and, sometimes i do believe that is their error... to do such an EULA overkill, that people think they're spied on on every corner. For example, people are complaining in Android, that apps need this or that permission to access the system, personal data, etc. On Windows, or MacOS, no program even asks about that, they just take those permissions, and i haven't heard anyone complain about that. Anyway, i'll leave that to the personal view point. Most uses for the permissions taken on the OS are laughable anyway, for example, an audio player app needs permission to access the telephone function of the smartphone. To spy on people eh? Nope, to turn down the volume, when a phone call is incoming, so you hear the phone call, and don't miss it. ).

[Burillo]

Of course, i can't tell what is happening below the surface, but, you can turn on or off a lot of things, concerning collection of data (which is mostly for use of personalization, and, generally, to improve apps anyway... also in Cortana), standpoint, and other stuff, and there are loads of EULA's too, which explain what Microsoft do with the data (and, sometimes i do believe that is their error... to do such an EULA overkill, that people think they're spied on on every corner. For example, people are complaining in Android, that apps need this or that permission to access the system, personal data, etc. On Windows, or MacOS, no program even asks about that, they just take those permissions, and i haven't heard anyone complain about that. Anyway, i'll leave that to the personal view point.).

you don't have to explain all of that to me, i know most of the discussion surrounding these issues are conspiracy theories stemming from people misunderstanding corporate-speak and legal landscape in the US however, some of the stuff is real. automatic installation/uninstallation of software that the OS deems "incompatible" (or, god forbid, "pirated"), various data collection, automatic updates and the like - in other words, i'm worried about concrete functionality which either can prevent me from having a stable computing environment, or with which i disagree on principle - not about what Microsoft might or might not do with this or that data. no-lawsuit clauses don't work in EU as far as i am aware, so it's only a concern for those across the pond, not for me.

[rifftrax]

If you want to control the updates, buy the Pro edition, AFAIK, you can control the updates there. About the privacy stuff: I don't see, how that would change in future updates. Windows IS a service now, they won't make enough money with selling the OS, Apple already offers their OS versions for free, Android and ChromeOS are virtually free, so, there's really not much money to be made solely by selling the OS, so it IS the services, which are offered, like, the store, the Outlook services, and personalized ads, which create the money for Microsoft, so, they will hardly un-personalize their services now, to make no money. Microsoft more or less goes the same way as Google now, and the money is being made with personalized advertising in the MS services.

Well you're actually completely wrong here. Let's look at actual numbers.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10 ... heres-why/

Did you see the chart? Non-SaaS sales are still Microsoft's bread and butter by a ridiculous margin. Please folks lets do some research before acting like you intimately know a company's business model.

Here's an updated version of the chart from that post, covering Microsoft's full fiscal year 2015

Awesome, hope about something more up to date? Windows 10 was just released in mid 2015... and of course, the services are the way to go in the home computing sector, otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't have given away Windows 10 to Windows 7 and 8 users.

Microsoft made $80B revenue GAAP in FY16. Compare that to the entire global SaaS market at $92B for the same year. Microsoft projects they will hit $20B for SaaS in FY18, which will even then be a fraction of their overall revenue. Yes, it's growing quickly but Microsoft is not Google by the craziest stretch of the imagination.

[chk071]

Of course, i can't tell what is happening below the surface, but, you can turn on or off a lot of things, concerning collection of data (which is mostly for use of personalization, and, generally, to improve apps anyway... also in Cortana), standpoint, and other stuff, and there are loads of EULA's too, which explain what Microsoft do with the data (and, sometimes i do believe that is their error... to do such an EULA overkill, that people think they're spied on on every corner. For example, people are complaining in Android, that apps need this or that permission to access the system, personal data, etc. On Windows, or MacOS, no program even asks about that, they just take those permissions, and i haven't heard anyone complain about that. Anyway, i'll leave that to the personal view point.).

you don't have to explain all of that to me, i know most of the discussion surrounding these issues are conspiracy theories stemming from people misunderstanding corporate-speak and legal landscape in the US however, some of the stuff is real. automatic installation/uninstallation of software that the OS deems "incompatible" (or, god forbid, "pirated"), various data collection, automatic updates and the like - in other words, i'm worried about concrete functionality which either can prevent me from having a stable computing environment, or with which i disagree on principle - not about what Microsoft might or might not do with this or that data. no-lawsuit clauses don't work in EU as far as i am aware, so it's only a concern for those across the pond, not for me.

Regarding the uninstallation of software: As far as i read (i'm following several Windows forums, more or less often), that was done for software, which is incompatible with the new Windows update (for example, versions of CCleaner). I also read, dunno if it's true, that developers don't get the new Windows version early enough to adjust their software to work with it, and, if that didn't happen, and it proved to be incomapible, it was uninstalled automatically. Don't take my word for it, that's what i read, and what i gathered from the information i got from the infos posted by other users.

[chk071]

If you want to control the updates, buy the Pro edition, AFAIK, you can control the updates there. About the privacy stuff: I don't see, how that would change in future updates. Windows IS a service now, they won't make enough money with selling the OS, Apple already offers their OS versions for free, Android and ChromeOS are virtually free, so, there's really not much money to be made solely by selling the OS, so it IS the services, which are offered, like, the store, the Outlook services, and personalized ads, which create the money for Microsoft, so, they will hardly un-personalize their services now, to make no money. Microsoft more or less goes the same way as Google now, and the money is being made with personalized advertising in the MS services.

Well you're actually completely wrong here. Let's look at actual numbers.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10 ... heres-why/

Did you see the chart? Non-SaaS sales are still Microsoft's bread and butter by a ridiculous margin. Please folks lets do some research before acting like you intimately know a company's business model.

Here's an updated version of the chart from that post, covering Microsoft's full fiscal year 2015

Awesome, hope about something more up to date? Windows 10 was just released in mid 2015... and of course, the services are the way to go in the home computing sector, otherwise, Microsoft wouldn't have given away Windows 10 to Windows 7 and 8 users.

Microsoft made $80B revenue GAAP in FY16. Compare that to the entire global SaaS market at $92B for the same year. Microsoft projects they will hit $20B for SaaS in FY18, which will even then be a fraction of their overall revenue. Yes, it's growing quickly but Microsoft is not Google by the craziest stretch of the imagination.

As you can see in the graphic in the article you linked, the sold Windows copies for home use, even in 2015. where Win 8 was still running, is pretty small compared to the Office sales, or corporate stuff, like server applications. And they completely messed up their phone branch too. Add to that that Apple, and Google are giving away their OS's, and, at least to me, it's pretty obvious which is the way to go for their business. Surely not the sale of home licenses of Windows. Otherwise they wouldn't have given away Windows 10 to Win 7 and 8 users in the first place.

[mcbpete]

automatic installation/uninstallation of software that the OS deems "incompatible" (or, god forbid, "pirated"), various data collection, automatic updates and the like - in other words, i'm worried about concrete functionality which either can prevent me from having a stable computing environment

Just to add my [personal] 2 pennies worth - I've had automatic Windows updates switched on my PCs since I switched from dial-up to broadband nearly 15 years ago and have *never* had any compatibility issues with drivers, software & games & plugins (legit .... or, ahem! otherwise), hardware over the years. My current laptop started with Windows 7 on it and over the years has moved to Windows 8.0 to 8.1 to the latest Windows 10 - *nothing* has broken as a result of the updates. Hell (and this may be hard to believe) my machine is stabler and faster now than it was 5 years ago !

[rifftrax]

Of course, i can't tell what is happening below the surface, but, you can turn on or off a lot of things, concerning collection of data (which is mostly for use of personalization, and, generally, to improve apps anyway... also in Cortana), standpoint, and other stuff, and there are loads of EULA's too, which explain what Microsoft do with the data (and, sometimes i do believe that is their error... to do such an EULA overkill, that people think they're spied on on every corner. For example, people are complaining in Android, that apps need this or that permission to access the system, personal data, etc. On Windows, or MacOS, no program even asks about that, they just take those permissions, and i haven't heard anyone complain about that. Anyway, i'll leave that to the personal view point.).

you don't have to explain all of that to me, i know most of the discussion surrounding these issues are conspiracy theories stemming from people misunderstanding corporate-speak and legal landscape in the US however, some of the stuff is real. automatic installation/uninstallation of software that the OS deems "incompatible" (or, god forbid, "pirated"), various data collection, automatic updates and the like - in other words, i'm worried about concrete functionality which either can prevent me from having a stable computing environment, or with which i disagree on principle - not about what Microsoft might or might not do with this or that data. no-lawsuit clauses don't work in EU as far as i am aware, so it's only a concern for those across the pond, not for me.

Regarding the uninstallation of software: As far as i read (i'm following several Windows forums, more or less often), that was done for software, which is incompatible with the new Windows update (for example, versions of CCleaner). I also read, dunno if it's true, that developers don't get the new Windows version early enough to adjust their software to work with it, and, if that didn't happen, and it proved to be incomapible, it was uninstalled automatically. Don't take my word for it, that's what i read, and what i gathered from the information i got from the infos posted by other users.

No, what actually happened is the update arbitrarily removed all kinds of perfectly compatible software including pretty critical shit like IIS that was running fine on a humongous amount of computers. This happened directly to a number of my clients. Here are examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... d_botched/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... ft_office/

[chk071]

Lol... i also have VLC, 7-zip, Nvidia control panel, Sony Movie Studio and what not installed (and probably also that IIS thing, isn't that a part of Windows?), which is listed in those threads. Never uninstalled anything here, on 2 computers. Why would it do that anyway? What i gathered from the Windows forums i'm in though is that quite a few security suites cause update issues. And that's probably the culprit here. Kaspersky Internet Security is such a case, AFAIK.

It often gets recommended to deactivate, or even uninstall such security suites for a Windows update BTW.

[Burillo]

Regarding the uninstallation of software: As far as i read (i'm following several Windows forums, more or less often), that was done for software, which is incompatible with the new Windows update (for example, versions of CCleaner). I also read, dunno if it's true, that developers don't get the new Windows version early enough to adjust their software to work with it, and, if that didn't happen, and it proved to be incomapible, it was uninstalled automatically. Don't take my word for it, that's what i read, and what i gathered from the information i got from the infos posted by other users.

that appears to be an accurate description from a quick google search, but in any case, the fact that the OS does that (rather than, say, displaying a message saying, "hey, this here app you have is incompatible with our shiny new update, so we'll offer you a choice of either holding it off or removing the app") is a matter for concern already. they could at least provide a tool that would scan the installed applications and tell me if any of them are about to be removed because of the update, or provide some other means of, you know, making a choice on the matter.

[rifftrax]

As you can see in the graphic in the article you linked, the sold Windows copies for home use, even in 2015. where Win 8 was still running, is pretty small compared to the Office sales, or corporate stuff, like server applications. And they completely messed up their phone branch too. Add to that that Apple, and Google are giving away their OS's, and, at least to me, it's pretty obvious which is the way to go for their business. Surely not the sale of home licenses of Windows. Otherwise they wouldn't have given away Windows 10 to Win 7 and 8 users in the first place.

Well yes consumer market is a bit of a sore point for Microsoft in general:
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/14 ... in-8-years

Giving away Windows 10 was about ensuring people build reliance on its integrated platforms (HoloLens, tablets, app store, etc.) combined with the fact that they are generally terrible at understanding how to court the small-business and consumer homebrew system-builder markets (i.e. gamers, makers, early-adopters, non-enterprise home tech businesses that don't require server, etc)

[rifftrax]

Lol... i also have VLC, 7-zip, Nvidia control panel, Sony Movie Studio and what not installed (and probably also that IIS thing, isn't that a part of Windows?), which is listed in those threads. Never uninstalled anything here, on 2 computers. Why would it do that anyway? What i gathered from the Windows forums i'm in though is that quite a few security suites cause update issues. And that's probably the culprit here. Kaspersky Internet Security is such a case, AFAIK.

It often gets recommended to deactivate, or even uninstall such security suites for a Windows update BTW.

Well, it's obvious that because it didn't happen to you then it couldn't possibly have happened to anyone else. Case closed I guess. If you don't know what IIS is then it's unlikely you're in the segment of people who do more than just game and do some basic document processing with their computers.

[Burillo]

automatic installation/uninstallation of software that the OS deems "incompatible" (or, god forbid, "pirated"), various data collection, automatic updates and the like - in other words, i'm worried about concrete functionality which either can prevent me from having a stable computing environment

Just to add my [personal] 2 pennies worth - I've had automatic Windows updates switched on my PCs since I switched from dial-up to broadband nearly 15 years ago and have *never* had any compatibility issues with drivers, software & games & plugins (legit .... or, ahem! otherwise), hardware over the years. My current laptop started with Windows 7 on it and over the years has moved to Windows 8.0 to 8.1 to the latest Windows 10 - *nothing* has broken as a result of the updates. Hell (and this may be hard to believe) my machine is stabler and faster now than it was 5 years ago !

again, you don't have to explain the benefits of updates to me - i know why they're important, i upgraded to Windows 7 the minute it came out (i never upgraded to Windows Vista as it was crap). what i also know that, before Windows 10, if a piece of software was incompatible with a new update, it would just, you know, not run (or otherwise malfunction), rather than being removed automatically. i can understand automatically removing/installing stuff that's part of the OS, but user installed applications are user installed, and the fact that Windows 10 can do that at all (even if it never happens to me) is a matter of concern for me. that's why i have waited this long to even consider upgrading to Windows 10 - it seems to be full of such little surprises, and has so many things to turn off before i can trust it to be as stable as Windows 7 was/is.

[Burillo]

doublepost

[chk071]

Well, it's obvious that because it didn't happen to you then it couldn't possibly have happened to anyone else. Case closed I guess.

But, wait. You just told me, that, just because it happened to some of your "clients", it has to happen to everyone. You know, if i gathered one thing in my computing time, and the time i spent in forums, and support forums, then it is, that people do all sorts of crazy stuff with their computers, and then blame it all on the OS, and the company which did it.

Can't help but think you'r somehow on a mission, like most of the people in threads like these.

[ThomasHelzle]

Well, I personally don't see a single reason to be all blue-eyed and trusting in these things.

Recently Telephonica, which owns for instance O2 in Germany, decided to sell all customers traffic data.
I have my mobile phone, my landline and internet with them.
So suddenly a provider who has all my traffic going through them starts to sell that data. Why would I want that? It's the opposite of what I want and pay for.
And it's not an opt-in or that my monthly plan is getting cheaper, they simply make another dime out of me by selling that data.
I only heard of it by accident through a great german computer magazine ("c't").
So there actually is an opt-out page for it, but O2 never contacted me and asked and I probably would never have found it or heard about it if not for that article.
This is not a cheap, ad-financed plan, it's an expensive business plan.

So traffic data doesn't sound like much, does it?
And it's all "non-personal".
So they say.
Well, recently the same magazine did a test what can be found in such data.
Turns out, having your continuous location does tell quite a bit about you. Probably where you work, where you live, where you go eating and dancing, where your children go to school...
And the browser data on what sites you visit. URLs. Now many such URLs contain quite a lot of personal data, they show your preferences/personal taste etc.
The people you call, what apps you install and use...
You may access files that you think are private.
You may do web-searches on topics you don't even think about how they sound to somebody else looking at them.

So what has that to do with W10?
Well, MS does not make any more money by just "improving their services" with the data they collect.
Improving services usually costs more money, not less.
So how do they make money of your data?
Just think about it for a while.

Cheers,

Tom