BigTick

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:15 am

I've asked these questions about other synths, but never got satisfactory answers. But Tick has always seem to be able to make complicated things sound simple, and now I'm experiencing this with Rhino, so I thought I'd ask once more, this time in the BT forums:

When I run two separate instances of Rhino, the individual patches sound different than when either is run with a single instance of Rhino loaded. It honestly sounds like they're feeding back on each other.

Also, I've noticed that when I have two instances of Rhino loaded I'll sometimes get a crackling noise started during playback, which even rebooting won't stop. But if I drop one of the Rhino instances the crackling goes away. And my cpu monitor never shows more than a 5-10% load, even when the crackling is happening.

As I said, this isn't a knock against Rhino, I've had these problems with Synth 1, Triangle, and other synths. I've just never been able to find a more than "gee, that's weird" response. It's probably unsolvable, I'm more curious than anything else.

Using Rhino2 in CubaseSX2, 768meg ram, running each instance with its own midi channel.

Big Tick · Post by **Big Tick** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:59 am

Gee, that's weird

Would you have any specific presets with which it's particularly obvious ?
'Tick

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:56 pm

i'm working on something w/ multiple instances of Rhino , in FLS ...
no problems such as you've described ...

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:39 pm

Well, the patch that prompted me to start this thread is Bell Dreams. It has an infinite sustain, but when I have two Rhino instances loaded, one with this patch, one with a rhythmic that I can't remember right now, instead of sustaining it gets louder and starts ringing.

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:57 pm

not sure if i have the bank w/ that pre-set ... can you tell me which bank it is in ?...

if you can describe the patches/banks , and i have them , i'll try to re-create the situation , and see if i can confirm ...

carterbennett · Post by **carterbennett** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:42 pm

Doug Nelson wrote:As I said, this isn't a knock against Rhino, I've had these problems with Synth 1, Triangle, and other synths. I've just never been able to find a more than "gee, that's weird" response. It's probably unsolvable, I'm more curious than anything else.

Using Rhino2 in CubaseSX2, 768meg ram, running each instance with its own midi channel.

Ahoy, Doug!

Y'know...I do remember having a similar issue with another VSTi at one point. It's something of a repressed memory, I'm certain.

Can't say I've ever experienced it with Rhino, but I have a vague recollection that I was getting that with DR-008 and with z3ta+ at one point.

But from a troubleshooting standpoint, one of the best things to do can be to remove various components of the system and see which one it might be.

I notice you're running Cubase SX2 as your host. Do you know whether you have the same behavior in something like Chainer, energyXT or Tobybear's MiniHost? Those each have free evaluation versions you could test with.

Now, Cubase does things with ASIO channels that most of those hosts won't do. They're good things, but sometimes Cubase's configuration can create things as you describe. Particularly when you put direct ASIO monitoring into the works or take it out.

Can you tell us which sort of sound card you're using? My vague recollection of something similar was on a Delta 1010 here.

My memory is really fuzzy, but it seemed to have something to do with channel configuation in Cubase, and it had to do with using paths with the right sound card settings...or something. I think it also had to do with migrating templates from SX 1 to SX 2 and some bogus VST routing that got carried over between the versions.

If you'd like to put together a .cpr of a configuration that's doing what you're describing, I'd be happy to load it up here and see if it's doing the same.

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:46 pm

I'm using an Audiophile 2496, so if this is a Delta problem that would make sense. The part I can't figure out is why it never happens from one different synth to another, only with the same one in multiple instances.

My current working theory is that it's actually an interference pattern caused by two too-identical soundwaves. In which case, my speakers are most likely to blame, not anything else in the chain.

As for other hosts, Cubase is my one and only.

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:48 pm

Bell Dreams is in the DX7 bank.

carterbennett · Post by **carterbennett** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:10 pm

Doug Nelson wrote:Bell Dreams is in the DX7 bank.

Well, I just loaded up two Rhinos in SX2 and put Bell Dreams in one, and several of the other patches in the other. I can't make out any kind of change one has on the other.

Couple of notions come to mind, though.

Does the interaction stop when you "power down" one of the Rhinos in the VST Instrument stack? Or do you actually have to unload one?

And are you running a really nice machine?

I've got a gig of memory but my processor is starting to show signs of age (1.8 GHz). Bell Dreams alone is peaking my VST Performance meter to about 50%. You mentioned 5-10%...so I'm thinking you have more oomph than I do.

Does the crackling alleviate any if you constrain delay compensation or raise your buffer size?

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:18 pm

No, your machine actually has a small edge over mine. Maybe I'm just bad at reading percentage graphs

The PF thread has me relistening to all my PF cds this afternoon, but as soon as I get that out of my system I'll run some tests and see if I can't actually capture something. (now I'm concerned that I'll capture it and say "here it is" and everyone will say "I can't hear it"

)

As for constraining delay compensation and raising buffer size, tell me where they are and I'll try them

carterbennett · Post by **carterbennett** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:36 pm

Doug Nelson wrote:No, your machine actually has a small edge over mine. Maybe I'm just bad at reading percentage graphs

heheh -- Well, it's more likely that the display updating the percentage graphs is lower on the priority list than moving audio, so the graph may not be updating very much.

(now I'm concerned that I'll capture it and say "here it is" and everyone will say "I can't hear it" )

Of course! This is the "Daddy's Watching Syndrome." Very common in troubleshooting.

As for constraining delay compensation and raising buffer size, tell me where they are and I'll try them

Well, the constraining delay compensation is that bracketed clock in the Cubase project window. It has a great deal to do with buffer timing and such, although it's main function seems to be disabling compressors in the effects racks.

The buffer sizing is in the soundcard control panel. Can't tell you precisely what it looks like on the 2496's panel. But I do know it should come up if, in Cubase, you go to "Devices -> Device Setup -> VST Multitrack" and look for the "Control Panel" button. From there, you're in Audiophile territory, but you should see something along the lines of "Latency" or "buffer size."

Shorter buffers get the sound through the audio chaing faster (with less lag time), but they make buffer overruns more likely--which may very well be crackling sound you're hearing at times.

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:55 am

Ok, sorry about the poor musicality, but I'm new

This isn't a good example, but it is an example. I've had others go contantly, but this one is just two or three instances on the high notes.

Here's just Bell Dreams:
http://www.retouchpro.com/music/1only.mp3
Now here adds a single sustained note using Simple and Beautiful (from Ambient Pads):
http://www.retouchpro.com/music/with2nd.mp3
And, if it helps, here's my Cubase file:
http://www.retouchpro.com/music/test.cpr
And, more as a curiosity than anything else, here's my performance meter during one of the distorted notes:
http://www.retouchpro.com/music/performance.html

Jeremy_NSL · Post by **Jeremy_NSL** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:19 am

Ok, if I am off-base on this, I don't mean any offence... But it appears you just need to turn down your mixer volume.

That 2nd mp3 is clipping heavily according to soundforge. This could be an artifact of mp3 compression, but I doubt it. Plus the distortion in the mp3 sounds like digital clipping. Check your master mixer levels - I'm guessing they are in the red.

Doug Nelson · Post by **Doug Nelson** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:37 am

No offense taken, I welcome any advice. And if this is just my lack of mixing knowledge, that's good news.

The trouble is that it only happens with a few synths, and even then only with multiple instances, so even if that is what's causing the distortion, it doesn't address why those few rare combinations would cause it.

If you add a quiet sound to a loud sound, does that make the loud sound louder? If true, this could explain a lot, but it doesn't sound logical to me.

And this is just one example. I've had other cases where loading a second instance made the first quieter, messed with the LFOs, and other weirdnesses. And I've never had any of this happen when using completely different synths.

Jeremy_NSL · Post by **Jeremy_NSL** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:44 am

You have to understand that in digital mixing, you only have so much headroom to use. So if you have a loud sound (bells), and add a quiet sound (pad) you now have a higher total volume. It isn't making the loud sound louder, its making the mix louder. And mixes can't be any higher than the 0db threshold without clipping - which causes distortion.

And indeed your 2nd mp3 exhibited both audible distortion and visible clipping in the waveform view (peaks of the waveform are 'chopped off')

Just try turning your cubase mixer volume down -6 or -10 db..

BigTick

KVR Audio

Multi Rhino interference