License model no way !!!

[xx JPRacer xx]

Fanboys should stop defending nonsense and respect other people's opinions.

You should too.

[rodanmusic]

Honestly I can understand why you are all so frightened by this model; however I really can't understand what you're all talking about being 'beta' testers for Bitwig.

I've used Logic, Ableton Live, FLStudio (3-12), Sonar, Studio One v2, Cubase, Reaper, and Bitwig extensively. I've read at least a book or watched multiple tutorials on each of them (tutorials as in paid tutorials that have around 50 lessons). I've used them all for long periods of time and each of them I dealt with so many bugs that i had to switch DAWS because it was so bad. Many of these systems have been out for a long long time. Eventually I ended up on Bitwig and as you say there are some bugs, but let me clear...Bitwig is the least buggy daw I have ever used. Your songs crash and most of the time they can be reloaded by clicking a button in the top left corner...that is unprecedented.

With FLStudio, the DAW i've used most, my old project directory is full of files like this:

awesomeSongILove20
coolTuneWithGoodBeat15
AwwwYeahFuckingGreat25
etc...

It's this way because i lost so many songs due to crashes that I had to literally save my song every like 10 minutes manually just to ensure i had access to at least a few changes back if it crashed.
Sonar I gave up on because it crashed so often I probably finished a single song on it over a year.
Studio one did pretty well but I had crashes as well, and the workflow didn't suit my style of music.

It goes on and on. I've been searching for the perfect DAW for a long time and Bitwig is as close as I've come to this. I originally started my search because I was leveling out on my creativity with the workflow I had on FLStudio. Literally the only DAW that has allowed me to get that groove back again has been Bitwig, and I will wholeheartedly support their new model because this DAW allows me to do the one thing that matters...make music. And I want to support their continued development.

Yeah it's a lot of money, but you don't have to upgrade every year. Maybe there are some bugs...ok..Go back a minor version or two and work with what you were most creative on. I stuck with FlStudio 9 for so long because it just worked for me. I got free upgrades for that software and I didn't upgrade for quite a long time. I apply this to all my software. I don't update Mac OS anymore because every time i do there is an issue...with all my software...my entire system even. It's completely ok to stick with something that works until you demo it and decide it is at a level you can upgrade to.

Bitwig needs a continual income to continue and this is a way that they can have that. Users upgrade at different times and they get money every month because of it. Instead of the previous model where they get a tiny bit of money every month and a lot of money every couple of years. They're not being grubby they're just spreading that large lump of money over the year instead.

So many companies are going this way because of this. It makes sense. The old model doesn't for a company.

And the idea that we haven't had many updates since v1 is absurd...it's like every month or so that a new update comes out fixing and upgrading the software. Most of the things that bothered me about Bitwig have been fixed now...the final (erasing notes using right click) will be fixed in Bitwig 2. I have never seen a DAW company move this fast in my life and I've scoured so many DAW forums throughout the years.

Anyways it is your choice to support a developer or not but I hope that some of you will take the approach of watch and wait. See how many updates come out over the first 6-12 months. I think if you count them up you will be surprised at how quickly they move. It might be even faster than before because they'll be able to hire more developers.

[humanbeingbeing]

Anyways it is your choice to support a developer or not but I hope that some of you will take the approach of watch and wait. See how many updates come out over the first 6-12 months. I think if you count them up you will be surprised at how quickly they move. It might be even faster than before because they'll be able to hire more developers.

IMO Bitwig's bugs have been more serious and even thinking outside myself I think they are worse, but that's a matter of debate.... and I don't agree with you about updates, the frequency of updates to bring fixes is the problem for me, I reported a bug that I was told would be fixed in the next version, I waited 14 releases for that fix and it was a huge bug... I wouldn't want to pay for a year of that... you bring up an interesting point tho, the subscription model has to deliver for Bitwig, because if it doesn't people will not renew their subs... of course the conspiracy theorists will suggest it's a scam for another year of money... but I don't know that, I just know I wont pay the sub until I've seen this progress with my own eyes.

..and to be ultra clear, I am not frightened by the model, some have chosen to criticize that on its own.. I actually think it's a fine model if that were the model we started with... I am only concerned for those with a 1.0 license, just on what I consider spending my money on, I can't bring myself to support the sub after 1.0 --- it's a problem of no confidence.

[viceverser]

This thread is so familiar to anyone who ever managed a retail business: customers trying to bully the seller to lower their price.

Meh. This is about customer being angry that a company changed their business model. People are not angry about the price, they are angry about the subscription model.

Upgrade price is very disappointing , V2 features after 3 years is very disappointing , but the 12 month update fee thing is the final straw

I really hate this new business model. Back when cakewalk decided to go this route, I was so mad that I gave my account away for free. Promised myself to never buy anything from cakewalk again.

That's the software equivalent of self harm.

There aren't really two licence models exactly the same in DAW world so I'm not sure why people are comparing.

I would say that Bitwig, with the information we have, is exactly the same as waves... How would that be wrong?

[Coockie1176ln]

So many companies are going this way because of this. It makes sense. The old model doesn't for a company.

What more company? waves? Pro tools have rental option but one can still buy pro tools. steven slate got rental still can buy the plugins, same with softube. No one that i know except waves done the same move as bitwig. And whom doesnt hate waves update model. you dont get help if you havent updated your WUP. Its so mental, once my computer crashed and i had to reinstall windows, and the mac adress dint match anymore, so i had to tell em to remove the plugins, but since the wup was removed they told me there was nothing i could do but update my waves plan. Mental yes but i manage to fix it myself by making my computer by force getting same mac adress. Lol but with bitwig only having mail support according to kvr news for those with update plans i see problems can happen.

Another problem with this move is that online collaboration. everybody needs to be on same version.
Also you dont understand why people got pissed, lets say you wana build a house (yes i wrote this before), and mid through they decide they want more money and take extra fees that wasn't there when you agreed to the first price. And they say hey if you dont agree to our new policy we wont finnish this. The same here but whatever for you i guess. happy you

[rodanmusic]

Anyways it is your choice to support a developer or not but I hope that some of you will take the approach of watch and wait. See how many updates come out over the first 6-12 months. I think if you count them up you will be surprised at how quickly they move. It might be even faster than before because they'll be able to hire more developers.

IMO Bitwig's bugs have been more serious and even thinking outside myself I think they are worse, but that's a matter of debate.... and I don't agree with you about updates, the frequency of updates to bring fixes is the problem for me, I reported a bug that I was told would be fixed in the next version, I waited 14 releases for that fix and it was a huge bug... I wouldn't want to pay for a year of that... you bring up an interesting point tho, the subscription model has to deliver for Bitwig, because if it doesn't people will not renew their subs... of course the conspiracy theorists will suggest it's a scam for another year of money... but I don't know that, I just know I wont pay the sub until I've seen this progress with my own eyes.

..and to be ultra clear, I am not frightened by the model, some have chosen to criticize that on its own.. I actually think it's a fine model if that were the model we started with... I am only concerned for those with a 1.0 license, just on what I consider spending my money on, I can't bring myself to support the sub after 1.0 --- it's a problem of no confidence.

I can understand that. We all have completely different studios, and these studios in and of themselves create issues that others won't experience. You may have definitely had bugs I haven't experienced.

I guess frightened might not have been the best term. Regardless my studio is not a simple studio. I have a lot of equipment. Nektar panorama, dsi mopho, social entropy engine, yamaha an200, Elektron machinedrum, electrix warpfactory, iconnect midi, MS2000, and the saffire pro 40 audio card. I am running a lot of stuff on Bitwig and it runs perfectly. And i'm not just using it outboard. I'm running audio and midi through bitwig. Timing is great and my audio records perfectly. On other daws i've had to adjust timing and move recorded audio back and forth on the timeline to get it to line up perfectly. With studio one it was all over the place.

TBH I've only used it on OSX. I ditched windows after Studio One and who knows maybe windows runs more poorly than OSX. I don't know, but one thing I know is that for me individually this runs better than anything else Ive tried, and I don't have many other DAWS left to experiment with. If bitwig dies I guess I go back to FLStudio, and I don't want that.

Also 14 minor versions is a long time to wait for a fix! I think that Bitwig follows a typical model of development where the most requested and report bugs are first to be addressed. Maybe this is the issue? Maybe your issue wasn't top for them to address? What was it that you were reporting exactly and expecting to be fixed? I've waiting for years for problems to be addressed in other daws, and i've waited years with no fix in sight just to have to leave because of it.

Anyways I don't want to portray that I don't believe what anyone here is saying. I know that daw software is some of the most frustrating thing you can deal with. When it disrupts your flow it ruins a song you're making. However I challenge anyone that hasn't used many daws to go out and really try the other software available and see how many issues you run in to. It will be very large, and based on my experiences alone it will be far beyond what you experience with Bitwig.

That said I agree software should work when released...exactly as claimed, but working as a programmer, I know this never happens. Our human minds are literally incapable of comprehending all the ways a user might use a feature of your software. I honestly can't be angry at a company for having a few bugs. I understand it and if it is too much for me I go elsewhere. Maybe some of the people here might be better served by doing this.

[rodanmusic]

So many companies are going this way because of this. It makes sense. The old model doesn't for a company.

What more company? waves? Pro tools have rental option but one can still buy pro tools. steven slate got rental still can buy the plugins, same with softube. No one that i know except waves done the same move as bitwig. And whom doesnt hate waves update model. you dont get help if you havent updated your WUP. Its so mental, once my computer crashed and i had to reinstall windows, and the mac adress dint match anymore, so i had to tell em to remove the plugins, but since the wup was removed they told me there was nothing i could do but update my waves plan. Mental yes but i manage to fix it myself by making my computer by force getting same mac adress. Lol but with bitwig only having mail support according to kvr news for those with update plans i see problems can happen.

Another problem with this move is that online collaboration. everybody needs to be on same version.
Also you dont understand why people got pissed, lets say you wana build a house (yes i wrote this before), and mid through they decide they want more money and take extra fees that wasn't there when you agreed to the first price. And they say hey if you dont agree to our new policy we wont finnish this. The same here but whatever for you i guess. happy you

Look I'm not trying to argue or be angry with you or anyone else. I'm just sharing my point of view.

There are a lot of companies pursuing this model...I'm not just talking about music software. Many different developers are moving this direction. I expect most software to take this model in the near future.

I did not think of the collaboration aspect. That is a very interesting problem that I hope Bitwig has had internal discussion about. Especially considering the prospect of online collaboration.

Also I do understand why people are unhappy, but in reality (and unfortunately) this is the way software has always worked. I've dealt with this issue through so many programming language, computer game, daw, graphic design, and other software.

They promise things and sometimes the promised product isn't exactly what you expect. But you paid for it and now you decide if it's worth it to you to upgrade to a version that will solve the issues. I have had to give up on software so many times in the last 20 years it's not even funny. But thats how it is. Bitwig is doing the best they can. They implement as many features as they can with their limited number of employees. I think that's one thing they are trying to solve. They can't fix all of the issues because their employment base is too small. It's like this with literally every product on the market today. Windows, Mac OS, Bitwig, other daws, shit even with banking products. Companies grow, and they grow as organically as they can based on their workforce and their income.

If that's not ok with you then try some other daws as I suggested earlier. You might find that the grass is much less green on the other side.

I totally get that you expected things that you may not have had delivered...I did too. I expected collaboration at 2, but it's not here yet. I expect it will be but I don't expect it now. This is one aspect that I feel will really be beneficial to me.

[Coockie1176ln]

So many companies are going this way because of this. It makes sense. The old model doesn't for a company.

What more company? waves? Pro tools have rental option but one can still buy pro tools. steven slate got rental still can buy the plugins, same with softube. No one that i know except waves done the same move as bitwig. And whom doesnt hate waves update model. you dont get help if you havent updated your WUP. Its so mental, once my computer crashed and i had to reinstall windows, and the mac adress dint match anymore, so i had to tell em to remove the plugins, but since the wup was removed they told me there was nothing i could do but update my waves plan. Mental yes but i manage to fix it myself by making my computer by force getting same mac adress. Lol but with bitwig only having mail support according to kvr news for those with update plans i see problems can happen.

Another problem with this move is that online collaboration. everybody needs to be on same version.
Also you dont understand why people got pissed, lets say you wana build a house (yes i wrote this before), and mid through they decide they want more money and take extra fees that wasn't there when you agreed to the first price. And they say hey if you dont agree to our new policy we wont finnish this. The same here but whatever for you i guess. happy you

Look I'm not trying to argue or be angry with you or anyone else. I'm just sharing my point of view.

There are a lot of companies pursuing this model...I'm not just talking about music software. Many different developers are moving this direction. I expect most software to take this model in the near future.

I did not think of the collaboration aspect. That is a very interesting problem that I hope Bitwig has had internal discussion about. Especially considering the prospect of online collaboration.

Also I do understand why people are unhappy, but in reality (and unfortunately) this is the way software has always worked. I've dealt with this issue through so many programming language, computer game, daw, graphic design, and other software.

They promise things and sometimes the promised product isn't exactly what you expect. But you paid for it and now you decide if it's worth it to you to upgrade to a version that will solve the issues. I have had to give up on software so many times in the last 20 years it's not even funny. But thats how it is. Bitwig is doing the best they can. They implement as many features as they can with their limited number of employees. I think that's one thing they are trying to solve. They can't fix all of the issues because their employment base is too small. It's like this with literally every product on the market today. Windows, Mac OS, Bitwig, other daws, shit even with banking products. Companies grow, and they grow as organically as they can based on their workforce and their income.

If that's not ok with you then try some other daws as I suggested earlier. You might find that the grass is much less green on the other side.

I totally get that you expected things that you may not have had delivered...I did too. I expected collaboration at 2, but it's not here yet. I expect it will be but I don't expect it now. This is one aspect that I feel will really be beneficial to me.

Youre to bright, i can see the defensive shining armor flashing my eyes blind! To bright!

[humanbeingbeing]

Anyways it is your choice to support a developer or not but I hope that some of you will take the approach of watch and wait. See how many updates come out over the first 6-12 months. I think if you count them up you will be surprised at how quickly they move. It might be even faster than before because they'll be able to hire more developers.

IMO Bitwig's bugs have been more serious and even thinking outside myself I think they are worse, but that's a matter of debate.... and I don't agree with you about updates, the frequency of updates to bring fixes is the problem for me, I reported a bug that I was told would be fixed in the next version, I waited 14 releases for that fix and it was a huge bug... I wouldn't want to pay for a year of that... you bring up an interesting point tho, the subscription model has to deliver for Bitwig, because if it doesn't people will not renew their subs... of course the conspiracy theorists will suggest it's a scam for another year of money... but I don't know that, I just know I wont pay the sub until I've seen this progress with my own eyes.

..and to be ultra clear, I am not frightened by the model, some have chosen to criticize that on its own.. I actually think it's a fine model if that were the model we started with... I am only concerned for those with a 1.0 license, just on what I consider spending my money on, I can't bring myself to support the sub after 1.0 --- it's a problem of no confidence.

I can understand that. We all have completely different studios, and these studios in and of themselves create issues that others won't experience. You may have definitely had bugs I haven't experienced.

I guess frightened might not have been the best term. Regardless my studio is not a simple studio. I have a lot of equipment. Nektar panorama, dsi mopho, social entropy engine, yamaha an200, Elektron machinedrum, electrix warpfactory, iconnect midi, MS2000, and the saffire pro 40 audio card. I am running a lot of stuff on Bitwig and it runs perfectly. And i'm not just using it outboard. I'm running audio and midi through bitwig. Timing is great and my audio records perfectly. On other daws i've had to adjust timing and move recorded audio back and forth on the timeline to get it to line up perfectly. With studio one it was all over the place.

TBH I've only used it on OSX. I ditched windows after Studio One and who knows maybe windows runs more poorly than OSX. I don't know, but one thing I know is that for me individually this runs better than anything else Ive tried, and I don't have many other DAWS left to experiment with. If bitwig dies I guess I go back to FLStudio, and I don't want that.

Also 14 minor versions is a long time to wait for a fix! I think that Bitwig follows a typical model of development where the most requested and report bugs are first to be addressed. Maybe this is the issue? Maybe your issue wasn't top for them to address? What was it that you were reporting exactly and expecting to be fixed? I've waiting for years for problems to be addressed in other daws, and i've waited years with no fix in sight just to have to leave because of it.

Anyways I don't want to portray that I don't believe what anyone here is saying. I know that daw software is some of the most frustrating thing you can deal with. When it disrupts your flow it ruins a song you're making. However I challenge anyone that hasn't used many daws to go out and really try the other software available and see how many issues you run in to. It will be very large, and based on my experiences alone it will be far beyond what you experience with Bitwig.

That said I agree software should work when released...exactly as claimed, but working as a programmer, I know this never happens. Our human minds are literally incapable of comprehending all the ways a user might use a feature of your software. I honestly can't be angry at a company for having a few bugs. I understand it and if it is too much for me I go elsewhere. Maybe some of the people here might be better served by doing this.

I do feel your writing portrays a false idea, that you think Bitwig is as good as any other software and that it's track record is comparable, but that is not the case...

I could list all my creds, all the software and hardware I've used to seem more experienced, but everything about Bitwig is on record... you're going to have a really hard time establishing this narrative... I myself have worked with music software for 20 years, I've been a software engineer for even longer and the first year of Bitwig releases was NOT typical at all... , it's nothing to do with the OS support, I work in loads of daws in loads of studios not just my own... after 2 years of waiting for it to be released in the first place.. people used to call it 'Bitwait' and now they want an annual sub... I'm not sure if you had those experiences, I have to assume you got into Bitwig recently.. but I am on record about Bitwig bugs with many others, this isn't a new thing I've just come up with... a cursory glance at the release archive portrays a vivid picture, the word 'crash' shows up 79 times, it still doesn't accurately depict the frequency of Bitwig issues + conspicuous missing features.

I have heard the standard practice myth before...kinda misleading considering the size of Bitwig--- they do follow standard practice with a super small team... maybe that is the issue... if I had to guess I'd say they have very little QA--- in my SW company we have more testers on staff than devs... I should add we are talking about a new license model, they have switched from the 'standard' one... remember this discussion is about them changing their practice....

the bug I reported was a disgraceful bug which should never have been in the software to begin with, it wasn't a low priority bug, and it wasn't even fixed properly in the first go.... I find it amusing that you jump to speculation with this because the history of Bitwig is so well documented... I personally recall at least 20 weird bugs that took years to fix... and also recall this constant back and forth where one thing would get working and something else would break.... constant regressions, 6 on record. I installed over 30 versions of Bitwig... I have NEVER seen that kind of issue with other music software, I was able to move back to Cubase and Ableton and get work done.... I, like many others, am on record getting fed up with bugs and leaving Bitwig to mature... I saw the 2.0 update come through and thought, maybe now they've got their act together.. still kinda amazed that it's not the 2.0 that was previewed before.. is that standard?. I'm not paying for the privilege of finding out...

I think you should stick to the argument because conjecture about whether Bitwig is as high quality as any other music software is really not the point, it's about the time it took to get to this point.... if you're saying Bitwig 1.0 was just as great at launch - I'm sorry but that's delusional - you added the word 'minor' to those 14 fixes as if 14 minor updates is no big deal.. and again, 1.0 was supposed to be the production ready version, there was a coming soon video up for 2 whole years.

I'm just curious... lets say hypothetically that Bitwig 2 takes over a year to be production ready, which was absolutely the case for version 1.... are you telling me that you're completely ok with that? and I presume you'd be happy paying again for another year of support? If you're ok with that then there is no point of discussing anything, we're on 2 different philosophical planets.

Subscription models are for mature software. If you feel comfortable with it, good for you, but based on my past experience I will be swerving this one, and I advise newbies to consider the history before shelling out...

[shaboogen]

This thread has now devolved to the point where someone is simultaneously attempting to state that you NEED to have the same version for online collaboration thus making the license scummy and complaining that online collaboration hasn't happened yet despite being promised and thus Bitwig are the worst company in the history of the universe.

I get that folks are mad, but this is 2X pages at this point of like three dudes with a lack of information screaming that the sky is falling while positing the most absurd edge cases as likely realities to attack the model arguing with a couple of folks saying "that doesn't sound likely".

(Admittedly, the folks talking about buying during Black Friday and being dicked about with the upgrade have a point)

Nobody's mind is being changed here, this is a waste of everyone's time.

D.S

[mevla]

...at the very least this indicates that you're really taking a huge gamble signing up for a subscription ... based on history, you won't even get the teased features or even stability, especially in the calendar year, more like multiple years.. I really cannot understand how they can float this given past experience

There is no gamble. People pay for a 2.0 major update. By early 2018 they will see what was done in 2017 to motivate giving money. If not paying for a 'subscription', then simply wait for 3.0 to buy that major release. Because...

Based on history the current Bitwig allows for creating music. Expectation is that at least this state will also be found by the end of 2017. If not enhanced due to bugfixes, new features, etc.

Of course, if Bitwig 2.0 is totally broken by the end of 2017, this would change. Based on history, this is not likely.

[humanbeingbeing]

...at the very least this indicates that you're really taking a huge gamble signing up for a subscription ... based on history, you won't even get the teased features or even stability, especially in the calendar year, more like multiple years.. I really cannot understand how they can float this given past experience

There is no gamble. People pay for a 2.0 major update. By early 2018 they will see what was done in 2017 to motivate giving money. If not paying for a 'subscription', then simply wait for 3.0 to buy that major release. Because...

Based on history the current Bitwig allows for creating music. Expectation is that at least this state will also be found by the end of 2017. If not enhanced due to bugfixes, new features, etc.

Of course, if Bitwig 2.0 is totally broken by the end of 2017, this would change. Based on history, this is not likely.

"There's no gamble" you've lost me... you go on to explain the game and the risks, that's gambling.

I will not gamble with a first year subscription. Maybe in 2018, I'm not GAMBLING in 2017.

[humanbeingbeing]

Nobody's mind is being changed here, this is a waste of everyone's time.

D.S

Agreed.

[mevla]

...at the very least this indicates that you're really taking a huge gamble signing up for a subscription ... based on history, you won't even get the teased features or even stability, especially in the calendar year, more like multiple years.. I really cannot understand how they can float this given past experience

There is no gamble. People pay for a 2.0 major update. By early 2018 they will see what was done in 2017 to motivate giving money. If not paying for a 'subscription', then simply wait for 3.0 to buy that major release. Because...

Based on history the current Bitwig allows for creating music. Expectation is that at least this state will also be found by the end of 2017. If not enhanced due to bugfixes, new features, etc.

Of course, if Bitwig 2.0 is totally broken by the end of 2017, this would change. Based on history, this is not likely.

"There's no gamble" you've lost me... you go on to explain the game and the risks, that's gambling.

I will not gamble with a first year subscription. Maybe in 2018, I'm not GAMBLING in 2017.

There's no gamble since the current Bitwig allows for creation and this will be very likely the state that 159€ for 2.0 will give you by the end of 2017.

Do you really think that by the end of 2017 Bitwig will be totally broken preventing using it for creating music ?

[mevla]

I wonder how some people can get such negative views after the output made within two years by this small Bitwig team. First release in March 2014. All other current DAWs have may, many more years behind them.