KVR Audio

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:55 pm

I'm referring to this:

How can I show up a VST parameter is this panel for MIDI learning which is not accessible via plugin GUI (i.e. only via generic/host plugin UI) ?

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:08 pm

Are the parameters you want to map hidden from Live's Mapping Editor as well as the plugins GUI?

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:33 pm

Thanks.
You mean this (sorry, new to Live) ?

If so, obviously not, it's empty.

To give a specific example:
Take this plugin (made by me, so I know it serves as example, but I know there are others with "hidden" params):

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?id=2483

This is it opened in Reaper with generic/host UI, the "Delay LFO" params are only accessable there, but not via GUI.

So another wording for my question is I guess:
Is it possible in Live to open plugins in generic/host UI mode ?

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:29 pm

I'll download your plugin (looks groovey) and have a look at what's happening with the mapping ...

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:34 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:I'll download your plugin (looks groovey) and have a look at what's happening with the mapping ...

Thanks.

pottering · Post by **pottering** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:38 pm

There are "LFO speed" knobs on the UI, and "LFO depth" is probably "amnt" on the UI.

Otherwise, Live usually pick ups "hidden" parameters when you change presets (if the presets do differ in those parameters).

(which is also a fast way of adding parameters to the configuration)

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:55 pm

This is what I see when I load Dub Siren ... not seeing any hidden parameters.

dub siren 2.jpg

When I click the MIDI assign button there's no hidden stuff showing either ...

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:10 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:This is what I see when I load Dub Siren ... not seeing any hidden parameters.
When I click the MIDI assign button there's no hidden stuff showing either ...

As said above, the last two params in the list (Delay LFO speed/depth) are not accessable via GUI.
My question is/was rather how did you bring them up to begin with ?
By changing presets as the other poster said ? (solved, see my edit below)
That's a good hint btw., tried and it works with Dub Siren, thanks.

Ok, so we have solved this for Dub Siren now to the actual plugin I'm having this trouble with.

Image-Line/now Gibson - Deckadance.
It has params for accessing the playlist for example which are abviously not accessible via GUI (at least Live doesn't pick them up), and it has no presets either so this approach doesn't work (I think), how can Live pick up those ?

I can see and learn them in Reaper just fine for example.

There's a (almost) fully functional demo available if anyone wants to give it a try:
http://www.stantondj.com/deckadance-2.html

edit:
Ah, I see with Dub Siren the params list is populated automatically when I click the triangle button. This doesn't work with Deckadance for some reason.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:25 pm

The 'automapping' only works on plugins with up to a certain number of parameters. If there are more, you have to add them using the configure button.

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:52 am

This could be it as Deckadance has over 400 parameters.
But how could I add them using the configure button if they are not accessable via GUI ?

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:24 am

There is a way to configure the max number of parameters Live "automaps" from any given plug in, the default is 32, if the plug in has more than 32 it doesn't map anything. But editing the options.txt file it is possible to make LIve to always add the maximun number of parameters (128) no matter how many the plug in has.

The info is here:

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... e-for-Live

How to use Options.txt

First you have to create a text file called "Options.txt" in the same folder where Live's Preferences.cfg file is located. Here's where to find the preferences folder (Live 6.0.9 or higher):

Windows XP

\Documents and Settings\[username]\Application Data\Ableton\Live x.x.x\Preferences\

Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows 10

\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\Ableton\Live x.x.x\Preferences\

Mac OS X

/Users/[username]/Library/Preferences/Ableton/Live x.x.x/

Please refer to the following knowledge base article for further information on how to access hidden folders on Windows and Mac OSX.

You can activate several options in the Options.txt file but use only one per line. The syntax is very simple; each option begins with a hyphen and some options also require an additional underscore (see examples below). If you use the wrong syntax you will get an error message when opening Live. You need to restart Live to activate the option. The file format of the Options.txt must be plain text.

"PluginAutoPopulateThreshold"

Auto-populates the plugin parameter list if a plugin has a number of less or equal than X parameters

Default = 32
Min = 1
Max = 128

"-1" will always populate the list with max. 128 parameters, regardless how many parameters the plugin has (= similar to Live 7 behaviour)

Supported since: 8.1.1

Example: -_PluginAutoPopulateThreshold=32

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:15 pm

That's a good hint, thanks.

I've tried this and it works - well in principle.
However

Max = 128

and the parameters I try to MIDI learn are beyond these 128.
What now ?

Trying to put say 400 as -_PluginAutoPopulateThreshold doesn't work (as expected), it shows none at all.

Tbh, why this is limited to 128 parameters is beyond me, as I know quite a few plugins that exceed this number.

So am I out of luck here ?

pottering · Post by **pottering** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:33 pm

The limit comes from the MIDI Standard itself, that only has 128 control messages.

No_Use · Post by **No_Use** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:46 pm

pottering wrote:The limit comes from the MIDI Standard itself, that only has 128 control messages.

It's about host (VST) automation here which afaict is not related to available MIDI CC numbers (128 as you correctly say).
edit:
It's NOT that I want to map more than 128 parameters at once, in case that came across wrong.

As shown in the screenshot above, I can access and MIDI map parameters > 128 (meaning the "position" where they appear as VST parameters in the host) fine in Reaper, just not in Live (if they're not accessable via GUI).
It's a flaw / bug in Live I'd say.

pottering · Post by **pottering** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:18 pm

Arguably it is Deckadance that has a flaw, I mean, what's the "why'' for hiding useful parameters from the user (and DAW)? Other plugins can expose on/off buttons, play/stop buttons, etc. just by clicking on the GUI.

Anyhow, If the plugin has it own MIDI Learn you can do some automation with MIDI CCs, using tip 14 in this article:

http://little-scale.blogspot.com.br/201 ... -2017.html

(even if it is not useful for Deckadance it is very good for other stuff, you can unlink envelopes and use as dummy clips)

I actually own Deckadance on Steam, but the Steam version doesn't have the VST...
But the dev (Luis Serrano?) is very active in Stanton Deckadance forum. He seems receptive to requests.

How to MIDI learn "hidden" VST parameters in Live ?