KVR Audio

cytospur · Post by **cytospur** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:31 pm

Ingonator wrote:
ENV1 wrote:
Ingonator wrote:...a "Saw Up" wave in one and a "Saw Down" wave in the other Osc...
...will give you a PWM sound.

(Including the nasty cancellation that occurs when both oscs are the same amplitude and their phases meet at 100% shift.)

Dont get me wrong, its a good trick if the synth has no PWM but provides both upwards and downwards ramping saws. But if what you want is a detuned saw sound then youre not doing yourself a favor with this since it will inevitably 'square the saws'.
Sorry but i do not see that if i use a Saw Up on one and Saw Down on the other Osc and detuine them by around 10 cents this should be even remotely similar to PWM. It still sounds just loke 2 detuned Saws fo me, not Square like.

It's a classic way of doing PWM. I'm surprised that you of all people don't know that.

AnX · Post by **AnX** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Ingonator wrote:
ENV1 wrote:
Ingonator wrote:...a "Saw Up" wave in one and a "Saw Down" wave in the other Osc...
...will give you a PWM sound.

(Including the nasty cancellation that occurs when both oscs are the same amplitude and their phases meet at 100% shift.)

Dont get me wrong, its a good trick if the synth has no PWM but provides both upwards and downwards ramping saws. But if what you want is a detuned saw sound then youre not doing yourself a favor with this since it will inevitably 'square the saws'.
Sorry but i do not see that if i use a Saw Up on one and Saw Down on the other Osc and detuine them by around 10 cents this should be even remotely similar to PWM. It still sounds just like 2 detuned Saws fo me, not Square like. The differnce to using two similar Saws mostly seems to be the way the Oscs are "beating" when detuned.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:43 pm

ENV1 · Post by **ENV1** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 pm

Ingonator wrote:Sorry but i do not see that if i use a Saw Up on one and Saw Down on the other Osc and detuine them by around 10 cents this should be even remotely similar to PWM. It still sounds just like 2 detuned Saws fo me, not Square like. The differnce to using two similar Saws mostly seems to be the way the Oscs are "beating" when detuned.

Well of course youre free to believe what you want. Im just telling you, so feel free to ignore it. The fact that 2 identical saws of equal amplitude with one of them reversed will give you a squarewave or silence depending on the phase shift wont change.

(If you really need a demonstration, get the .fxp from the attachment. Load it into z3ta+, press and hold a note, it will be silent. Now drag the FINE slider. Instant PWM, you can verify it on a oscilloscope if you dont believe your ears. Why that effect? Because what one saw adds, the other saw subtracts in equal amount. Thats why you get a square sound at 50% phase shift and silence when the phase shift is 100%. (Provided of course the oscs have the same amplitude.))

SawsToSquare.zip

fluffy_little_something · Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:53 pm

I think this approach only works when you can lock the phases of the two waves, but not with free-running ones.
It's the standard way of creating pulse signals on Sylenth1.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:56 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:I think this approach only works when you can lock the phases of the two waves, but not with free-running ones.

Yeah. I just tried it with Sylenth1, and it surely sounds more "square-ish" with phase retriggering, than free-running. Works though. Funky for the synths which don't offer PWM.

Also works in Monark, but the oscillators are always free-running there, so it may sound a bit different to "real" PWM.

fluffy_little_something · Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:58 pm

chk071 wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:I think this approach only works when you can lock the phases of the two waves, but not with free-running ones.
Yeah. I just tried it with Sylenth1, and it surely sounds more "square-ish" with phase retriggering, than free-running. Works though. Funky for the synths which don't offer PWM. Also works in Monark, but the oscillators are always free-running there, so it may sound a bit different to "real" PWM.

It sounds totally squarish when you set the phase control right

It is just like a dedicated pulse on other synths. The phase knob becomes the pulse width control so to speak.

ENV1 · Post by **ENV1** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:02 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:I think this approach only works when you can lock the phases of the two waves, but not with free-running ones.
It's the standard way of creating pulse signals on Sylenth1.

Synced or not doesnt matter.

Try the z3ta+ preset i just posted and set both oscs to 'Normal, Free'.

Drag one of the FINE sliders to get the PWM going.

Slap an o-scope on the output and see: Its still as square as it was when the oscs were synced.

(It couldnt be any other way.)

fluffy_little_something · Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:06 pm

ENV1 wrote: Synced or not doesnt matter.

Try the z3ta+ preset i just posted and set both oscs to 'Normal, Free'.

Drag one of the FINE sliders to get the PWM going.

Slap an o-scope on the output and see: Its still as square as it was when the oscs were synced.

(It couldnt be any other way.)

I don't know that synth, but in Sylenth1 it sure is necessary to select the retrigger option on both saws and the inverse option on one of the two saws.

Without retrigger, the sound becomes very arbitrary, with a different pulse width with every note played, which is logical.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:08 pm

Just tried an oscilloscope plugin (the free MOscillocope) with The Legend when using a combination of Saw Down and Saw Up Oscs at a detunig of around 10 cents. In the Oscilloscope it indeed looks more square like than with two similar Saw waveforms while the resulting sound is VERY similar in both cases. So still no problem for me as long as it still sounds like it should...

AnX · Post by **AnX** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:15 pm

...which is a PWM sound

ENV1 · Post by **ENV1** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:28 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:I don't know that synth, but in Sylenth1 it sure is necessary to select the retrigger option on both saws and the inverse option on one of the two saws.

Without retrigger, the sound becomes very arbitrary, with a different pulse width with every note played, which is logical.

You dont know z3ta+? Seriously?

Anyway, i see what you mean. (You mean that the static waveform thats being generated without one of the oscs being detuned will change in width with every new note because the oscs start phase is different every time you play a new note, correct?) You get that in z3ta+ too when the oscs are freerunning and both FINE sliders are precisely on 0, but its different in that it only occurs with different notes, i.e. the first note is always the same pulsewidth but additional notes will be a different pulsewidth and only as long as the first note is still playing.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:32 pm

I now compared my sound in The Legend to a similar one in OB-Xd that uses real PWM (Pulse modulated by a LFO) and my sound in The Legend still sounds more like a Saw than actual PWM, no matter how i set the PWM on Ob-Xd (start pulse width and mod amount/rate). Using a detuned Saw in OB-Xd sounds similar to my patch in The Legend.

Actually i had recreated that patch in The Legend based on one in OB-Xd...

fluffy_little_something · Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:34 pm

ENV1 wrote:You dont know z3ta+? Seriously?

Anyway, i see what you mean. (You mean that the static waveform thats being generated without one of the oscs being detuned will change in width with every new note because the oscs start phase is different every time you play a new note, correct?) You get that in z3ta+ too when the oscs are freerunning and both FINE sliders are precisely on 0, but its different in that it only occurs with different notes, i.e. the first note is always the same pulsewidth but additional notes will be a different pulsewidth and only as long as the first note is still playing.

Well, I do know it by name, of course. I think I even tried the demo years ago...
On Sylenth1 the pulse sounds different with every first note as well because the two phases change all the time, thus the resulting pulse width as well.
Seems those two synths behave rather differently...

fluffy_little_something · Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Ingonator wrote:I now compared my sound in The Legend to a similar one in OB-Xd that uses real PWM (Pulse modulated by a LFO) and my sound in The Legend still sounds more like a Saw than actual PWM, no matter how i set the PWM on Ob-Xd (start pulse width and mod amount/rate). Using a detuned Saw in OB-Xd sounds similar to my patch in The Legend.

Actually i had recreated that patch in The Legend based on one in OB-Xd...

Isn't it a key property of Legend that everything is always on and free-running? I thought I read that weeks ago when it was launched. So, you should not be able to produce an authentic pulse that way.

Synapse Audio Minimoog emulation "The Legend" for VST/AU and RE released!