bitwig 2 is here

[popskull]

So I asked for a refund given:

They changed their update policy to subscription. Only 12 month bug fixes. Considering it's taken them 3 years I can't see them releasing anything significant in 12 months .

They are not offering a reasonable upgrade price . 3/4 of original price every 12 months is not reasonable.

They did not deliver on promised V2 features - modular environment , network collaboration .

They banned me from Bitwig forums for expressing this view

Support reply was - We have not implemented a subscription model and you've been too long a customer for a refund.

I'll stick with Logic and Live . Much better.

[pdxindy]

I'll stick with Logic and Live . Much better.

Good luck... they are both excellent

[SLiC]

So I asked for a refund given:

They changed their update policy to subscription. Only 12 month bug fixes. Considering it's taken them 3 years I can't see them releasing anything significant in 12 months .

They are not offering a reasonable upgrade price . 3/4 of original price every 12 months is not reasonable.

They did not deliver on promised V2 features - modular environment , network collaboration .

They banned me from Bitwig forums for expressing this view

Support reply was - We have not implemented a subscription model and you've been too long a customer for a refund.

I'll stick with Logic and Live . Much better.

OK- point made. Bye.

[ThomasHelzle]

@ Freedom of speech: Hello? Time to wake up. This is a forum run by private people, not some kind of political opinion platform where any nobody from nowhere can post his opinion, and tussle with like-minded people. The fact that so many confuse it with that doesn't make it any more true. Read the forum rules, if you don't believe me. If i would post "F*** all jews", and get banned, i could also resort to my right of freedom of speech, but, i hardly would be treated any other way by the mods here, which are there to enforce rules, if i do so. Sounds logical, and like something everyone should know himself? Well, it doesn't look like it.

Thankfully, he was banned... that is one of the constant manipulations... trying to guilt people with the free speech meme. As you say these are private forums. On my forum, which I run and pay for, I do not even need to have forum rules. I can ban anyone I want, whenever I want, for any arbitrary reason. Forum rules are themselves a curtesy. There is no free speech on websites. Your free speech is the ability to go make your own website!

And these days, many people have retreated from real world engagement over real civil liberties and instead pretend to care in virtual worlds where there are none. Meanwhile, in the real world, real rights are disappearing fast... and almost nobody does anything about it cause they are hiding in the virtual world and pretending that is living...

[exmatproton]

@ Freedom of speech: Hello? Time to wake up. This is a forum run by private people, not some kind of political opinion platform where any nobody from nowhere can post his opinion, and tussle with like-minded people. The fact that so many confuse it with that doesn't make it any more true. Read the forum rules, if you don't believe me. If i would post "F*** all jews", and get banned, i could also resort to my right of freedom of speech, but, i hardly would be treated any other way by the mods here, which are there to enforce rules, if i do so. Sounds logical, and like something everyone should know himself? Well, it doesn't look like it.

Thankfully, he was banned... that is one of the constant manipulations... trying to guilt people with the free speech meme. As you say these are private forums. On my forum, which I run and pay for, I do not even need to have forum rules. I can ban anyone I want, whenever I want, for any arbitrary reason. Forum rules are themselves a curtesy. There is no free speech on websites. Your free speech is the ability to go make your own website!

And these days, many people have retreated from real world engagement over real civil liberties and instead pretend to care in virtual worlds where there are none. Meanwhile, in the real world, real rights are disappearing fast... and almost nobody does anything about it cause they are hiding in the virtual world and pretending that is living...

Although offtopic as f***,,,

[fmr]

@ Freedom of speech: Hello? Time to wake up. This is a forum run by private people, not some kind of political opinion platform where any nobody from nowhere can post his opinion, and tussle with like-minded people. The fact that so many confuse it with that doesn't make it any more true. Read the forum rules, if you don't believe me. If i would post "F*** all jews", and get banned, i could also resort to my right of freedom of speech, but, i hardly would be treated any other way by the mods here, which are there to enforce rules, if i do so. Sounds logical, and like something everyone should know himself? Well, it doesn't look like it.

Thankfully, he was banned... that is one of the constant manipulations... trying to guilt people with the free speech meme. As you say these are private forums. On my forum, which I run and pay for, I do not even need to have forum rules. I can ban anyone I want, whenever I want, for any arbitrary reason. Forum rules are themselves a curtesy. There is no free speech on websites. Your free speech is the ability to go make your own website!

And these days, many people have retreated from real world engagement over real civil liberties and instead pretend to care in virtual worlds where there are none. Meanwhile, in the real world, real rights are disappearing fast... and almost nobody does anything about it cause they are hiding in the virtual world and pretending that is living...

Wow, this could very well be the speech of a tribune

[Rappo Clappo]

I'm also supporter of transparency and freedom of speech, so for me locking threads and blocking discussion is totally unacceptable.

That is something I always struggle with. I co-moderated the Bitwig Forum for a while and basically would agree with you in normal life quite strongly.

But after you try your best for a while with helping people, you realise that there are a lot of them who do not care the least for anything constructive (I do not talk about you or anybody specific here) but enter each and every thread, no matter what the topic, to spread their gall.

So you have that brandnew user, eager to learn the software and asking for some advice about this and that and booom, he basically gets the equivalent of a year worth of bad-digestion residue emptied over him.
So instead of somebody open and curious you now have somebody confused and insecure.
He may be totally new to audio software and suddenly is totally in the defensive instead of getting a helping hand.

Or you have an old hand, really knowledgeable, willing to help others, encountering some obstacle. Instead of solutions and workarounds, people start to empty all their bottled-up anger over him, when he tries to get to the bottom of the problem instead of just getting told how demented the devs are anyway. He may just go somewhere else instead of being a valueable member of the community - why should he waste his time with such silly stuff. In an early article about Bitwig, a writer said that you "should not enter this kind of audio forum or you may lose your will to live".

And there are real nutcases who write on KVR and to support under dozens of different names...

So for me personally, I find it extremely hard to on one side try to create a community that is helpful and welcoming and on the other hand keep a certain part of that community from simply blurting down everything that isn't in the respective unhappy persons agenda.

I personally think, that a lot of this hasn't anything to do with free speech at all and it's actually a miss-use of the term.

But yes, if everybody is focused on getting music done and being respectful with others opinions, all is fine, you don't need to moderate things.
But what is the value of everything going down in destructive spirals?

For me personally it means that I spend less time on KVR and the Bitwig Forum nowadays...
There are more constructive ways to spend my life.

Cheers,

Tom

"So you have that brandnew user, eager to learn the software and asking for some advice about this and that and booom, he basically gets the equivalent of a year worth of bad-digestion residue emptied over him.
So instead of somebody open and curious you now have somebody confused and insecure.
He may be totally new to audio software and suddenly is totally in the defensive instead of getting a helping hand."

That is not true; your opinion is not the truth. It's a very biased opinion IMHO, because a. You make references to your time as an employee of Bitwig Co which does not make you any more special than other forum members as it comes to you status of replies, still you deliberately try to use it in your argument, b. You make your *conclusions* based on your own assumptions. C. You made a false reference to *freedom of speech* to make your point.

I think each forum member can see that your statements are a. Extremely defensive - which cannot be the order of the day at an open forum for all the world, b. Your statements are not a proven fact. C. You don't -and that's why I am writing this REPRESENT new customers -new forum members if you like- in ANY WAY.

In my opinion your statements are as suggestive as highly manipulative to *get things done* on this forum. Because the mentioned statements in relation to free speech are as political as they not should be. Because your statements are false until proven right. As any other statement. It's exactly this rigid way of holding regime what destroys communities, I suppose.

[GaryG]

It's exactly this rigid way of holding regime what destroys communities, I suppose.

No, it's this constant f**king bleating about freedom of speech on a company forum that's destroying communities. Maybe go and read some stuff on real freedom of speech/censorship issues before getting all worked up about, ultimately, nothing.

I think I'm done with KvR.

[chk071]

So I asked for a refund given:

They changed their update policy to subscription. Only 12 month bug fixes. Considering it's taken them 3 years I can't see them releasing anything significant in 12 months .

They are not offering a reasonable upgrade price . 3/4 of original price every 12 months is not reasonable.

They did not deliver on promised V2 features - modular environment , network collaboration .

They banned me from Bitwig forums for expressing this view

Support reply was - We have not implemented a subscription model and you've been too long a customer for a refund.

I'll stick with Logic and Live . Much better.

OK- point made. Bye.

[CTStump]

It's look's like this thread is getting way off topic. About time to start a new topic about free speech on the webz or forum policy, in another sub forum.

Either way the release of Bitwig 2 some will look out for the roll out and the upgrade periods watching to see if promises are kept... Before they buy. Other's will purchase anyway and gripe as is usually is the case. There will be issues no matter what happens.

Once again stating the obvious...

[David Boura]

Unflag

[Daags]

.... will the whitewashing ever stop ?

[CTStump]

.... will the whitewashing ever stop ?

It's looks that way but it's not. I posted the same thing 3 times as a qoute. The content was hyperbole so I removed it as it had nothing to do with the topic just a reply about a person not the Software.

Definitely my bad.

[elxsound]

If you find yourself saying KVR this and KVR that... well there's a good chance your are apart of the problem you complain about.

KVR is an open forum full of members worldwide, of varying opinions. Not all are going to be flattering of *any* given product.

If you want a different experience here, then start with how *you* interact with people you don't agree with. There is no room for a "bubble" experience on an open forum.

[popskull]

So I asked for a refund given:

They changed their update policy to subscription. Only 12 month bug fixes. Considering it's taken them 3 years I can't see them releasing anything significant in 12 months .

They are not offering a reasonable upgrade price . 3/4 of original price every 12 months is not reasonable.

They did not deliver on promised V2 features - modular environment , network collaboration .

They banned me from Bitwig forums for expressing this view

Support reply was - We have not implemented a subscription model and you've been too long a customer for a refund.

I'll stick with Logic and Live . Much better.

OK- point made. Bye.

Well done bitwig. Great release and strategy. Piss off half your users. Loss of revenue and another excuse for a piss poor development cycle. A test for the fanboys to see how long they will pay.