One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

[Compyfox]

Joking aside from both z.prime (I didn't "assault" you, btw) and rghvdberg...

I think the topic hasn't ended yet, and we should talk about how this whole thing will be properly handled in the future. I didn't see BJPorter comment on this in further detail, neither do I know if there is a dedicated page for that in the making already via the OSC GooglePages folder...


But let me re-quote what I wrote last night - because I'm sure it got lost in the... no, sorry, that wasn't a debate. Anyway...

...I just sent this to BJPorter... and that topic is no matter to joke about. So read carefully as to "what could have been...".

Additionally - "legal action" can be taken by the users that were NOT ASKED prior to the upload. Just a short info from German Copyright Laws, which are one of the most brutal things if you're caught:

Uploading/Sharing a track, and may it only be 1kb of it, means unlawful redistribution of copyright material. At bar minimum, lawyers can ask for a couple hundred EUR, worst case scenario: raided house, taken equipment (you will NEVER see your PC's and HDDs again), 10k EUR amount of dispute bar minimum (plus additional lawyer costs - depending on the company/artist/representative in question), entry in certificate of good conduct (we have something like that over here) - additional: 20hours of community service (best case) or xyz amount of months in jail.

You folks, or rather the person that did this (bonus note: or might do this in the future) "at the behest of the OSC", poked a bee's nest...

Be happy that nobody went ahead and actually took legal action - because this is no laughing matter.

Okay, now that we established that this could have caused really bad repercussions (thanks brainzistor and Wagtunes for pointing that out as well), we should know talk about "how" to maybe properly improve this.


This is just a mind map of what needs to be done IMO:

• OSC Management
  • first and foremost, the official OSC page needs an overhaul, where all "leading members" are mentioned on a dedicated page in name (with or without photo - with makes a better impression), with their corresponding position for the challenge. REASON: if "somebody" speaks for the OSC and messes up in the process, then the most vocal person is to blame (currently: BJPorter). If there is a clear hierarchy, make it public - this is also important for possible legal issues (see my quote above)
  • those that "speak for" the Challenge initiators without their consent, need to be actively put in their place. No excuses! REASON: such behavior (as happened earlier) can drastically backfire. This will result in bad press for the OSC, and at worse extend even KVR Audio. Especially as long as the OSC is called "KVR One Synth Challenge" and not "One Synth Challenge - currently held on...". I'm fairly sure that Ben[KVR] might not be too happy about that
• Off-Branch handling if finances/royalties are involved (iTunes/Spotify/etc)
  • most important is the communication with the users in question way upfront, and not hidden in threads XYZ. Meaning: this has to be announced in every OSC (intro post), this has to be suitably highlighted with every OSC (intro post, try to find a better to read layout at this point maybe), there needs to be a dedicated page on the official OSC page about this so that users are always informed about that
  • people need to be asked for their consent, it is still their intellectual property that they offer for the Challenge
  • or, if you want to go that route (which is possible), make it clear right from the start that if "from now on if you post, all top 10 to top 20 tracks will be uploaded to... you give us exclusive distribution rights" (which in turn means - "distribution somewhere else is not allowed"), that people can opt out at any given moment or refuse the upload/refuse to even join the challenge
  • additional to that point: there needs to be a set of rules if the creators themselves still want to sell their creations as well (as part of a physical release, streaming, or download) - the song creator (rights holder) ultimately has the higher rights. If he wants to upload it on his outlets, you can't do that without written consent (contract, special deals, etc). Else this results in rip-off on various ends.
  • IMPORTANT: If there are members of any music revenue tax collection service (GEMA in Germany, SUISA in Switzerland, PRS for music in the UK, Harry Fox Agency or the RIAA in the US), those tracks can not be uploaded without checking with the "tax collection" agency first, and without investing a lot of fees to "buy out". This in turn makes it (theoretically!) impossible for such members to join the OSC in the first place - unless they produce under a non-registered name
• Documentation
  • there needs to be transparency regarding handling of the funds (who handles it, why does he handle it, what will be done with the funds, is the TAX forwarded properly, etc)
  • there needs to be a monthly overview of the sales and income, as part of regular statistics or similar, available to the public!

Now you might be saying "no can do - that's too much extra work and a rule set that users can't/won't agree on - this is off-putting to even join the challenge".

Then you have two options:
1) do it, but do it right - maybe loose 10-15 participants in the process but be save (for the moment) of any possible repercussions
2) don't do it


Anything else in-between might result in massive problems. Unless you're fine with touching that ground.

Then I only have one recommendation for you: good luck.

[rghvdberg]

A personal reply from me.

We now have all been informed of these risks involved.
For that I thank you Compyfox.

I'm willing to take a bit of a risk.
I'll still offer to put the songs online. The people involved can decide for themselves what to do.

Good luck to you too.

[Compyfox]

So you do want to walk the "thin line of 'grey zone' " instead of doing this the right way with all it's odds and ends. That's recipe for disaster waiting to happen (I didn't write this for nothing, you know - you've been warned!).

In this case, I think you definitely need the luck more than I do.
But thanks.

[Frostline]

@Brainzistor

Hi,
Sorry if my post offended you.
You were not my target.
Sometimes people get a bit wound-up in online discourse (I believe you might have some experience with both ends of that).
Never was my intent to cause you distress.

It was also never intended, written or implied by me that you lacked the cognitive ability to read. That does not even make sense to me as an insult on a written forum. Of course the people there participating have the ability to process written information. So I do not understand why 'someone' is insisting that I made a comment stating you were stupid.

I do not know you.
From what knowledge I have of you, you seem to me like decently intelligent person and gifted in musical expression.
So if you feel I have insulted you, please believe that was never my intent. I do apologize if I have given you any indication that I do not respect either your intelligence or ability.

Thank you for your time.

[Compyfox]

So others are "decently intelligent" and "do not lack the cognitive ability to read", yet I do.

Still putting the boot in with continuous "subliminal" insults and pushing all blame away from you, Frostline... tells a lot about your character.

[rghvdberg]

So you do want to walk the "thin line of 'grey zone' " instead of doing this the right way with all it's odds and ends. That's recipe for disaster waiting to happen (I didn't write this for nothing, you know - you've been warned!).

In this case, I think you definitely need the luck more than I do.
But thanks.

NOTHING prevents you from doing this your way. Actually, go ahead; I welcome it.
Set something up and see if people like to do it your way. I don't care.
Only did it to help some friends getting their music online but if that is somehow wrong and you can do it better or safer or whatever, make us (as in the makers of the songs) an offer.

I make no claim to the songs, if people want to publish via other channels, parties. I'm fine with that.
If they don't want it at all. Fine, less work for me.

But I won't let you scare me away. Forget it. Not gonna happen. Don't waste your time. Better use that time to give the makers an alternative to what we have now.
Use your energy for a good thing, for something creative.
Don't tell me or anyone how to do things. Do it yourself.

But seriously, all this is insane and blown up beyond any proportion.
Does anyone here REALLY believe there's any REAL danger? Beside you Compyfox, you've made your point.

I'd like to know.

Meanwhile listening to One Synth Challenge 94 - Synth1 on Spotify
it's awesome.
https://play.spotify.com/album/74vtpElBPNcLCPFjQYD5YC

[Compyfox]

NOTHING prevents you from doing this your way. Actually, go ahead; I welcome it.

I'm not going to do this, since I'm no distributor.

But if I "would" distribute anything that doesn't belong to me, on any platform given - especially with finances involved, I'd ask the artist in question first. In fact, I'd save the conversation and agreement for later confirmation that I hold the rights to do such a thing (for the GEMA, etc).

Germany is a bit more strict with Copyright Laws than maybe the Netherlands (who I do know nothing about).

Set something up and see if people like to do it your way. I don't care.
Only did it to help some friends getting their music online but if that is somehow wrong and you can do it better or safer or whatever, make us (as in the makers of the songs) an offer.

You are not only putting yourself at risk for violation of copyright infringement, you also do so in the name of the OSC, and as extended arm also KVR (again: "KVR One Synth Challenge")

Do you ignore this on purpose, or do you really not see the issue this can evoke?!

I'm surprised that BJPorter goes along with that route as well - as current "head" of the OSC of all places.

I make no claim to the songs, if people want to publish via other channels, parties. I'm fine with that.
If they don't want it at all. Fine, less work for me.

The problem is still that you get revenue in return via Spotify and iTunes.
And here, transparency and communication is absolutely key.

Apparently, that is still not wanted, or "necessary"... not a good move IMO.

But I won't let you scare me away. Forget it. Not gonna happen. Don't waste your time. Better use that time to give the makers an alternative to what we have now.

Don't tell me I didn't warn you beforehand if sh*t hits the fan though.

Use your energy for a good thing, for something creative.
Don't tell me or anyone how to do things. Do it yourself.

I'm not doing "this", since I know what type of risky business this is.

If we take a look at the Mix Challenge, that's a completely different premise. If I were to ever go that route (mass distribute our winners to a streaming platform, which doesn't make sense as it's 10+ different mixes from the same source), I'd definitely involve lawyers first, then somebody who is skilled in this department, and then I start to communicate with the people in question as to what we plan to do, how we plan to do it, and what will happen with the... er... "income".

My own content though - completely different topic. Here I'd be my own boss, since it's my own content. But this is not part of this particular discussion.

But seriously, all this is insane and blown up beyond any proportion.
Does anyone here REALLY believe there's any REAL danger? Beside you Compyfox, you've made your point.

I think Wagtunes and brainzistor made the very same arguments clear? Are we ignoring them (and their words) once more / still?

Meanwhile listening to One Synth Challenge 94 - Synth1 on Spotify

Hopefully with permission by all participants.

[Guenon]

You are not only putting yourself at risk for violation of copyright infringement, you also do so in the name of the OSC, and as extended arm also KVR (again: "KVR One Synth Challenge")

After it has become routine to potentially distribute the winning tracks of consenting participants on Spotify (et al), and this arrangement is explicitly opt-in, there is minuscule danger of anything that warrants a reaction this dramatic. In my opinion it's nice of you to bring all these points to attention, thanks - even if I think you're being a bit over the top about it, haha. In any case, if this becomes a normal part of the proceedings and the information is transparently available (detailing the distribution methods and how the possible financial gains go back to OSC), I don't see how there could be massive problems like above. Before quoting that, also read what's below.

If this becomes a tradition, personally I think it's good form to make it a habit to simply declare one's stance when choosing a prize. So it's an explicit and easy statement, easily seen every month, an integral part of the proceedings: "I think I'll have Diversion as a prize, and my song can be redistributed as a part of this month's streamed release, thank youuu" ... "I'll take Modelonia, and I'd be more comfortable without you distributing this one, thanks."

When opening a new OSC for the month, in the opening post, always have a highlighted link to a page outlining the information on the streaming services used, along with a reminder that you can state your wish to be a part of such a release when choosing a prize, and include a disclaimer that all the possible money involved (which will be very little) is funneled back to OSC.

After that, when it's routine, it's routine. And obviously, if the communication broke down at the beginning, it doesn't mean there's something sinister about it . I get the impression this is totally being done as an additional way to bring some more nice things to the community, and I think that's cool. Thanks for going through the trouble.

[Compyfox]

You clearly understood the problem
(much needed upfront) communication and transparency



Now... if this will be(!) addressed right from the start in the future, and people have a chance to opt-in/out at any given time... then it's not (as) problematic and could expand the reach of the OSC.

But as long as this isn't happening (see my last posts: dedicated page on the official webpage, explicitly mentioned in every OSC from now on, in an easy to follow layout)... this is an issue and will(!) result into problems on the long run.



And I guess, at this point, nobody wants to see the OSC vanish because of some stupid thing. Neither the other challenges that started on KVR (Mix Challenge, Music Cafe Songwriting Competition).

So I can't add more to the discussion.

[z.prime]

Compyfox, it's a shame you think repeating yourself over and over with the same massive posts of drivel will change people's minds, make people "see things your way". They've only served to make you look like someone who's in a power struggle, by yourself, for something that you're not even involved in. Mixed in there are a couple of valid points. They were addressed. Any issues have been solved by the community already. It is over. Problem solved.

As for your baseless threats of the "OSC vanishing" and such, don't project your own mix challenge fears over here. It's a shame that the mix challenge is on the verge of a collapse due to lack of interest and participation. But don't ever compare them, one is a community run creative competition, the other is not. So you can stop with all the hellfire about OSC management needing overhaul and needing all these changes that have seemingly driven mix challenge into the ground. OSC is wonderful because of how it is, not headed by some sort of powermonger.

Here's the thing. If you like, post a simple bulleted list of your points, again, without a bunch of meaningless drivel and advertisements for the mix challenge. The points will be noted. If you continue to post useless text that just serves to irritate everyone involved in this contest, maybe we should start demanding a change in management of the mix challenge, too -- and then what will you have to compare the OSC to?

You said one thing absolutely right, though: you can't add more to the discussion.

[Compyfox]

Compyfox, it's a shame you think repeating yourself over and over with the same massive posts of drivel will change people's minds, make people "see things your way". They've only served to make you look like someone who's in a power struggle, by yourself, for something that you're not even involved in.

I'm "not involved" alright... in a community I do actively support and don't want to go down the drain either. So my concerns are far off the hook, out of proportion and what have you.

At least I'm not stuck alone in this loop. Get's kinda lonely after a while...

They were addressed. Any issues have been solved by the community already. It is over. Problem solved.

It is not - as long as this hasn't been addressed in more detail (see earlier made points).

As for your baseless threats of the "OSC vanishing" and such, don't project your own mix challenge fears over here.

a) it's not baseless, neither a threat. If you see it that way, that's your prerogative. The "Copyright Infringement (illegal redistribution)" is a serious (possible) issue to consider however

b) this has nothing to do with the "Mix Challenge", as we don't have this problem. And should we ever consider this route, I'm sure we will address it in a completely different manner

It's a shame that the mix challenge is on the verge of a collapse due to lack of interest and participation.

I wouldn't say "lack of interest", but definitely "Lack of participation".
So less talking, more helping - as client or mix participant.

But don't ever compare them, one is a community run creative competition, the other is not.

I do take offense in that (also in the name of the Mix Challenge participants), as the Mix Challenge is also a "community-run creative mixing competition" (on very aggressive request in it's early days by the KVR community btw). If you want to know more about the hierarchy, contact me and I point you in the right direction.

If you have questions/concerns/feedback/"hate-mail" - or help out even (you have a choice to brag about it, or help) - there are dedicated threads for that in the Production Techniques section, use the official page, or contact me directly (most of that stuff lands in my inbox anyway)

So you can stop with all the "hellfire" about OSC management needing overhaul and needing all these changes that have seemingly driven mix challenge into the ground.

I took the liberty to put the world "hellfire" in quotes.


Other than that - what you just wrote is not even remotely true.

And as long as you are not part of the Mix Challenge, or know "behind the scenes" information as to who/how/what/why (read: you're part of the staff), everything that you say at this point are arguments plucked out of the blue sky with no backup at all.

OSC is wonderful because of how it is, not headed by some sort of powermonger.

All the more power to the OSC then. I'm on the other hand are no (as you like to call it) "powermonger" - I'm nothing more than a concerned KVRian, possible future participant (maybe giving it another try) and friend of BJPorter.

Here's the thing. If you like, post a simple bulleted list of your points, again, without a bunch of meaningless drivel and advertisements for the mix challenge. The points will be noted.

Why should I repeat myself?

I've written that in minute detail as "possible solution" here:
viewtopic.php?p=6694586#p6694586

With no so called "advertising" whatsoever. It's now up to BJPorter (or the "leading people") to "port" this. Unless they want to play with a bee's nest that is (which they seem to like). (IMO and all that)

If he and/or "his team" (again, I'd like to know who the staff is - and I'm sure I'm not the only "outsider") doesn't - then the whole thing stays non-transparent and might(!!!!) result in bigger issues on the long run (especially if the connection to KVR remains in the name, or somebody feels like "I wasn't informed - I take legal action").

If he (hopefully) eventually does address all that - then things should be(!) fine.


At this point, I'm only waiting for an official:
"We've addressed all issues/concerns. You can now educate yourself on our official page, and also with an official statement in every thread (even retroactive for the last 5 challenges)".


So I don't understand where you seem to "not" understand where I'm pointing at.

Does sh*t really need to hit the fan (again) in order to see "whoops?! We messed up?! (again)". Didn't that happen already? Wasn't this the reason why this... "debate"... got kicked off and turned heated in the first place?

If you continue to post useless text that just serves to irritate everyone involved in this contest, maybe we should start demanding a change in management of the mix challenge, too -- and then what will you have to compare the OSC to?

I never demanded a "change of management". I asked for a (mere) listing of the current management and who is in charge. Totally different thing.

Please do yourself the favor and do not go down the road of Frostline.

You said one thing absolutely right, though: you can't add more to the discussion.

And neither can you - even if you're among the "top rated participants" of the Challenge. It's down to the so called "management" - and nobody else.






Else... we done with this yet? Or do I need another lecture?
If so... I've got a PM folder. I do like a new good bedtime read every once in a while...

[z.prime]

Compy, your continued posts simply illustrate my points. Great job. And as far as I can tell, you are in no way a friend of Brian, you've been attacking him since your whole tirade started. Way to spew out lies and ruin your credibility more.

[Compyfox]

First and foremost... "z"... my username is Compyfox, friends might call me Fox or know me by my first name (we however, are NOT friends).

And you have no idea who I might or might not know in this community, who am I am in touch or are (close) friends with. Neither is this any of your darn business. So you you're stepping way over the line/your area of competence to "doubt" that or put my "credibility" in question. And I do have an issue with that.



If your mind is "pre-set" to only the negative, only the stuff that you "want to see" - that's absolutely not my problem. But do me one favor - stop saying that I'm spewing out lies if I'm clearly not.

Else... if you can tone down your aggressive sub-tone... I invite you to PM me and we might discuss this further - if you want to that is. Because at this point, the people that continue to derail the thread... are people like you. And this does not add to the good image of the OSC.

it's actually the other way around (for me). Your constant defensive, yet aggressive stance towards "our OSC commnity is holy - how dare you!" is really off-putting. Great poster child for it, indeed.



Good day, sir!

[z.prime]

... you have no idea who I might or might not know in this community, who am I am in touch or are (close) friends with.

Nice one. But in fact, I, actually do talk with Brian periodically. And I can tell you based on some recent conversations, you are certainly not a friend, Compy.

[surreal]

So you do want to walk the "thin line of 'grey zone' " instead of doing this the right way with all it's odds and ends. That's recipe for disaster waiting to happen (I didn't write this for nothing, you know - you've been warned!).

In this case, I think you definitely need the luck more than I do.
But thanks.

NOTHING prevents you from doing this your way. Actually, go ahead; I welcome it.
Set something up and see if people like to do it your way. I don't care.
Only did it to help some friends getting their music online but if that is somehow wrong and you can do it better or safer or whatever, make us (as in the makers of the songs) an offer.

I make no claim to the songs, if people want to publish via other channels, parties. I'm fine with that.
If they don't want it at all. Fine, less work for me.

But I won't let you scare me away. Forget it. Not gonna happen. Don't waste your time. Better use that time to give the makers an alternative to what we have now.
Use your energy for a good thing, for something creative.
Don't tell me or anyone how to do things. Do it yourself.

But seriously, all this is insane and blown up beyond any proportion.
Does anyone here REALLY believe there's any REAL danger? Beside you Compyfox, you've made your point.

I'd like to know.

Meanwhile listening to One Synth Challenge 94 - Synth1 on Spotify
it's awesome.
https://play.spotify.com/album/74vtpElBPNcLCPFjQYD5YC

The real question here is.. who gets the cash from other peoples hardwork?? Spotify is useless as it is not available in my country