Midi keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch?

[fluffy_little_something]

I was wondering whether there are any affordable Midi controller keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch and 61 keys. There seem to be very few options, let alone affordable ones, by which I mean up to 250 euros or so. Are there any? I have not found anything on the sites of the big manufacturers so far.

My current one does not even have normal aftertouch.
So I am also wondering how that even works. That type of AT means that the aftertouch value is the same for all keys, right? How does the keyboard know which finger's force is to be used?

[garryknight]

I don't know of any 61-key controllers, but the way they work is that whatever the aftertouch is programmed to drive is applied to each key proportionally. So, if aftertouch is linked to vibrato, the pitch if each note will be varied proportionally to the pressure on the corresponding key.

[BertKoor]

I was wondering whether there are any affordable Midi controller keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch and 61 keys.

I highy doubt so... Even doubtful you can find a keyboard with Channel Pressure (non-poly aftertouch) implemented in that price range, but do prove me wrong!

My current one does not even have normal aftertouch.

Note of warning: I've been told by experienced keyboard players (of which I am not) that poly-aftertouch takes a lot of excersize to get under control. How's your keyboard playing technique currently?

So I am also wondering how that even works. That type of AT means that the aftertouch value is the same for all keys, right? How does the keyboard know which finger's force is to be used?

Each key has a pressure sensor ofcourse. That's why AfterTouch keyboards are so bloody expensive.

Velocity sensing is usually implemented by having two contacts and measure the time between these two make contact. Short time = high velocity, long time = low velocity. This mechanism doesn't suffice for aftertouch.

[BertKoor]

Wikipedia to the rescue:

On electronic keyboards and synthesizers, pressure sensitivity is usually called aftertouch. The vast majority of such instruments use only channel aftertouch: that is, one level of pressure is reported across the entire keyboard, which affects either all notes pressed (even ones not being pushed into aftertouch) or a subset of the active notes in some instruments that allow this level of control. A minority of instruments have polyphonic aftertouch, in which each individual note has its own sensor for pressure that enables differing usage of aftertouch for different notes. Aftertouch sensors detect whether the musician is continuing to exert pressure after the initial strike of the key.

[fluffy_little_something]

That was my question on normal (cheap) AT: how does the keyboard determine, which finger should determine the value which will be applied to all fingers? When I play with two hands, say one bass note and a 3-note chord, I basically produce 4 different pressure values at the same time, unless I am a robot

[BertKoor]

how does the keyboard determine, which finger should determine the value which will be applied to all fingers?

It does not. Possibly one pressure-sensitive strip is mounted on which all keys land. If there were individual sensors, it would technically already be poly-AT technology.

[jeamsler]

If you look used and are willing to use something that is more than just a controller and therefore comparatively heavy, there are some. The notable ones are the Ensoniq EPS, EPS16+ or ASR10 and the Ensoniq SQ80. Of these the original EPS would be the cheapest and if you just want it as a controller you can get it with no expansions for less than 250euro and even with some expansions for that price if you look around. The keybed can be cleaned (if needed) pretty easily if you don't mind a little disassembly. This is probably the cheapest way to go if you can put up with something bigger and heavier than a simple controller. I believe Keith McMillen Kboard and Qunexus are in your price range and you might be able to adapt to your needs. Not standard keys though and only 2 octaves. Not clear to me whether it can utilize polyphonic AT messages per se though. There is the Infinite Response VAX77 but that is way out of your price range. There are a few other older boards out there but likely way more expensive if you want them in good condition, and are heavier and/or harder to clean up than the EPS. I don't know of anything currently be manufactured with poly AT but look around; you never know.

[Chris-S]

Nice and cheap but 37 keys only:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/cme_xkey_37.htm (en)
https://www.thomann.de/de/cme_xkey_37.htm (de)

[fluffy_little_something]

They should make it modular, so that one can hook up two and get 74 keys

But since it seems there is no affordable 61-keyboard with normal keys and poly AT, let's develop one ourselves, a KVR keyboard for 250 euros. No bells and whistles, i.e. not zillions of knobs, pads, and faders, basically just a quality USB keyboard with two wheels, two octave up and down keys, and a sustain pedal input.

[Bojmir Raj Raj]

If you look used and are willing to use something that is more than just a controller and therefore comparatively heavy, there are some. The notable ones are the Ensoniq EPS, EPS16+ or ASR10 and the Ensoniq SQ80. Of these the original EPS would be the cheapest and if you just want it as a controller you can get it with no expansions for less than 250euro and even with some expansions for that price if you look around. The keybed can be cleaned (if needed) pretty easily if you don't mind a little disassembly. This is probably the cheapest way to go if you can put up with something bigger and heavier than a simple controller. I believe Keith McMillen Kboard and Qunexus are in your price range and you might be able to adapt to your needs. Not standard keys though and only 2 octaves. Not clear to me whether it can utilize polyphonic AT messages per se though. There is the Infinite Response VAX77 but that is way out of your price range. There are a few other older boards out there but likely way more expensive if you want them in good condition, and are heavier and/or harder to clean up than the EPS. I don't know of anything currently be manufactured with poly AT but look around; you never know.

^^^^This!

You should be able to get an EPS for less than 250. Poly aftertouch, good action, good mod wheels, an awesome keyboard controller! Plus it's heavy as hell and built like a tank so you can use it as a battering ram if you get locked into some studio or theater when you're out on the road!

[malachy5]

I have a little CME XKey, they are a great keyboard but I had to disable polyphonic aftertouch as Ableton doesn't recognise it and as pointed out you need pretty decent consistency on your playing to have it control your sounds properly (if using it to control per note filter cutoff for example). Bitwig supports poly AT very well but I found it time consuming to edit mistakes. Fun to play around with for sure. I'm looking forward to when things like the Seaboard Rise become more affordable and better supported in DAWs and VSTs.

[himalaya]

My current one does not even have normal aftertouch.

Note of warning: I've been told by experienced keyboard players (of which I am not) that poly-aftertouch takes a lot of excersize to get under control. How's your keyboard playing technique currently?

The difficulty stems from the fact that the aftertouch mechanism can be very unresponsive, behaving almost like an on-off switch. This is also true of standard channel (monophonic) aftertouch designs. So I would say, this difficulty is based on the mechanics of the design rather than any special playing techniqe. As long as you can play some basic chords you can make use of poly-at and get good expression. Play a chord, articulate a gesture with one finger, second finger...it works well without having to be a virtuoso, provided the mechanism is 'tuned' well.

I was playing the new Minimoog Model D the other day and its aftertouch is extremely smooth. Unbelievably so. Very easy to control. But I guess its due to the CV control? Don't know. My hardware synths have aftertouch that does not behave in this, smooth, 'fluid' manner.

[himalaya]

I was wondering whether there are any affordable Midi controller keyboards with polyphonic aftertouch and 61 keys. There seem to be very few options, let alone affordable ones, by which I mean up to 250 euros or so. Are there any? I have not found anything on the sites of the big manufacturers so far.

Any chance of finding what you desire are almost nil if you take into account that the main key-bed manufacturer, Fatar, does not have a single design with poly-aftertouch. Remember, we live in the button-pushing era, not a keyboard-expression era, so there is little commercial push to make such designs available, even at a higher price point.

Choosing one of the old Ensoniq synths could be costly due to their bad condition. These are really old, used and abused synths, which had quality issues when they were new, let alone now, 20-odd years later. I'd proceed with caution and if you see one on eBay, never ever buy it without having tested it before hand.

[Michael L]

Buy a Vax midi controller: 4, 6 or 8 octaves (96 keys). From the Features description:

Polyphonic Aftertouch changes the tonal characteristics of a note while it is being held. VAXMIDI keys strike felt first for a traditional feel, but underneath the felt is a layer of urethane foam that compresses as you press harder. With 10 levels of programmable sensitivity, you can set the degree of aftertouch. Because the key design incorporates a stainless steel bar, you can actually bend the key by sliding your finger up on the key. This creates an additional level of aftertouch control, making other effects, even tremelo, possible.

Release velocity sends a MIDI message based on the speed you release a note. You can, for example, control the envelope (or reverberation) based on how quickly you release a note. Release quickly and the note cuts off immediately, release slowly and the note slowly fades away.

vaxmidi.com

(I don't have one because my technique is not yet good enough to take advantage of Vax awesomeness.)

[himalaya]

I actually didn't realise that VAX was back! So in fact, my earlier statement that there is no chance of buying a new Poly-At keyboard is not accurate. Vax have some attractive prices, it seems, although, it looks like the keyboards they sell are for DIY.

This 6 octave version is very tempting!
http://vaxmidi.com/keyboards.html#!/VAX ... y=16007077