Is nowadays music industry really built to make things simpler?

[PastorTheDoctor]

Hello everybody! Glad to be here, new to this forum, this is my first post and thread.

I was born as pianist, I've also composed but at the same time I produce music (I'd really like to put out my new music ASAP). I've played in many bands (funk, prog metal, rock, trio) before.
As you may understand, I've always been between different worlds and I think that, as a grown musician, it's time to build a setup which REALLY fits with my own necessities. In other words, it doesn't matter how many functions a piece of equipment has: I just want quality and desire something really done for me. Such a difficult issue, I've been into it since 4/5 months ago, and I'm slowly finding out what's the best for me.

This research of new gear, that I wish it'll end up with an enough "comfortable" setup which sounds good for studio and live too, led me to some consideration:
everyone is different, right, but I think that manufacturers mostly focus on "selling things that can do almost everything, often despite quality" than in creating instruments that meet true necessities. They prefer us to "play" with knobs, sliders and pads, just as it were a game. OK, it's sign of the times and hardly it makes sense to go and play outside with and Oberheim OB 8 (although I couldn't stay away from buying a very cool Juno-60, with the intent to bring it live ), but now I think they're creating a lot of things with their own custom language and software (though these softwares should simplify interfacing with plug-ins).
For example, it's very difficult for me to find a MIDI keyboard with aftertouch (and good feel) which allows me to simply interface me every DAW/instrument I'm using: they all have their software, which absolutely don't simplify anything in my opinion (i. e. Novation's Automap: to assign a master DAW's value to a fader... ooooh what a mess!).

I'm really interested in having your point of view
Cheers

[rod_zero]

I don't agree with the part about the lack of options but I think information and marketing gets in the way. The other problematic part is that the software market is quite a jungle and there is no standard.

For example for a simple MIDI keyboard with aftertouch and nice feel (synth action not piano weighted) the Roland APRO line would be my choice. Second maybe would be the Kontrol S series by NI, which also integrates as a controller for their software. Or just pick some synth with good action and use it as a MIDI controller, the Blofeld keyboard for example.

Now I would state that any software between the plugin and the DAW is not desirable: Automap or Akai VIP just bring mess. Komplete Kontrol is a bit different because you have a virtual instrument company behind and much better integration and support. All the mapping is better handled by the DAW, some are better at this than others nevertheless.

The problem may be in fact the opposite: way too many options, way too many ways to do things.

Maybe if you explain your needs I could give you some ideas for your set up.

[PastorTheDoctor]

The problem may be in fact the opposite: way too many options, way too many ways to do things.

Maybe if you explain your needs I could give you some ideas for your set up.

Thank you rod_zero
I understand your point, thank you for your reply!
It's true, too many ways to do things: I'd like to see how many ways you had back in the days to do the same thing... maybe one? MAYBE!
Maybe it would be a bit "limitating", but at least people knew "what to study" to achieve something.
Thank you for your availability, this post was meant just to discuss this topic
What I'm basically looking for is a MIDI keyboard as described in the main post above, question for which you seems to have already given me a reply
I was thinking about Novation Impulse but it doesn't have aftertouch, right?

[whyterabbyt]

I just want quality

I think that manufacturers mostly focus on "selling things that can do almost everything, often despite quality

Quality costs money. Manufacturers focus on what will sell, and what sells is, in the main, that which is relatively cheap.

I was thinking about Novation Impulse but it doesn't have aftertouch, right?

Its a £200 keyboard, ie pretty much a budget device, so doesnt really square with your requirement for quality.
But yes, it has channel aftertouch.

[thecontrolcentre]

I was thinking about Novation Impulse but it doesn't have aftertouch, right?

Its a £200 keyboard, ie pretty much a budget device, so doesnt really square with your requirement for quality.
But yes, it has channel aftertouch.

The Novation ReMote SL range has it too.

[chk071]

Actually, i ordered one of those 2 days ago (Novation Impulse). What's wrong with Automap though? Seemed fine, when i looked into it. At least better as the completely absent functionality in the M-Audio Axiom i have now, and, better than the PITA mapping via Cubase's Generic Remote mapping, or track quick controls.

[xoxos]

you're kidding, right? instead of, obvious priorities like, taking your money, and much more importantly, keeping people ignorant so they keep making consumer decisions instead of developing skills that reduce their dependency, sense of entitlement and desire

is that simple? in some ways :p

try and find a keyboard that doesn't sound like someone dropped an empty shoebox on a tile floor when you release the key, that ought to answer your question.

nice point about interfaces to play like a game. a "viable" (embodying cryptocratic values) product engages the attention and excites the sense of "i'm going to do something with something" more than "i'm going to do something as a function of my volition". how fun it shall be to explore spending money.

[whyterabbyt]

Ah, is the xoxos show here. Farewell actual topic.

[PastorTheDoctor]

try and find a keyboard that doesn't sound like someone dropped an empty shoebox on a tile floor when you release the key, that ought to answer your question.

One of the best explanation I've ever heard about that matter

For example for a simple MIDI keyboard with aftertouch and nice feel (synth action not piano weighted) the Roland APRO line would be my choice.

Yeah, I was thinking about it too, since Impulse has Automap.
I also asked to my local dealer about Roland APRO series, but they've told me that they are pretty old, and - for the fact they have to interface with software - I don't want to buy something I'm not sure it's gonna work at least for a bunch of years, through technology development.

Anyway, are you comfortable with your own products you use for your setup? Or you think the topic I've opened is real, and sometimes you find it hard to make it ready for anything you'd like to do anytime?

[xoxos]

Ah, is the xoxos show here. Farewell actual topic.

hello actual curly wurly

or one lion bar plus a marathon and a tube of melted smarties they've been in my pocket all day.

[rod_zero]

Yeah, I was thinking about it too, since Impulse has Automap.
I also asked to my local dealer about Roland APRO series, but they've told me that they are pretty old, and - for the fact they have to interface with software - I don't want to buy something I'm not sure it's gonna work at least for a bunch of years, through technology development.

Anyway, are you comfortable with your own products you use for your setup? Or you think the topic I've opened is real, and sometimes you find it hard to make it ready for anything you'd like to do anytime?

Well that part is really strange, it sounds like sales pitch.

MIDI has not changed much in 30 years, controllers are simple: they transmit MIDI via MIDI output or USB midi, you assign MIDI CC numbers to the knobs and faders.

If you look around you will see that in the last 20 years midi controllers have not changed much, the same 8 knobs and in some cases 8 faders.

Some manufacturers as Novation and Akai have tried solutions for automapping but my experience with such products has showed me that putting any software between the host and the plug in adds a layer of complexity that I am not confortable. even worse if you remove this software you will be unable to recall your projects since the plug ins were wrapped with them and the DAW will no longer find those versions.

Native Instrument Komplete Kontrol software, that works with their keyboards, is similar but at least it comes from a company with a big portfolio of instruments and is well supported.

About the impulse: the keys are awful, they tried to make something that looks like weighted action but is still synth action and are very awkward to use.

Some conclusions around the controller market:

1.- There are controller with decent keys: Roland Apro line, Novation SLmk, Kontrol S. But many have very bad keys.
2.- There is currently no solution for automapping that is hassle free and works with many products.
3.- The best controllers are the ones that map/integrate to the host: Ableton Push, presonus faderport for example.
4.- the 8 knobs/8 faders configuration of most controllers is not enough to edit synthesizers (maybe libraries of acoustic instruments), navigating through pages and pages of parameters isn't fun.
5.- For controlling instruments and effects it is important that the controller has some visual feedback, a screen as in the control S or the slmk2, so you can know what you are controlling and the value. unfortunately this is not very common.
6.- Some hosts have good MIDI mapping or more complex systems to integrate controllers, Ableton Live and Bitwig have an "script" systems that allows some level of customization of controller mapping. Their mapping is also "dynamic" so the controller knobs/faders are not attached to a single function but work depending on what you are focused. In the case of Ableton Live many third party products exists, from iOS apps as Lemur (not ableton exclusive but it has a lot of templates for) and Touchable; to scripts providers as www.nativekontrol.com and Isotonik studios.

I use an Ableton Push as the DAW controller and it also provides me the ability to control effects and instruments, nevertheless I still can't edit synths comfortable enough so I just edit them directly in the GUI. But Push allows me to compose without looking to the computer screen, I can make a whole composition and then I come back to the monitor and edit sounds/change instruments and make further edits.

For keys I use a Casio Privia Px150 mainly, when I need aftertouch I use my elektron analog keys (good keys, but short keybed).

[rod_zero]

Other considerations:

When it comes to map a controller to a plug in and you don't want to use your host system (which may suck) the best way is to use the MIDI learn function for the plug in, but some plug ins doesn't have one.

Other option is to get a synth with a good amount of controls and use it with plugins that have MIDI learn, maybe a nord lead, novation k station, Virus A, B, C, novation supernova, studio logic sledge, etc.

[PastorTheDoctor]

Thank you rod_zero, you did a great and in-depth analysis which helped me!
I think that I will eventually opt for Roland A800-Pro.
What can you say about this keyboard? Keybed, controls, integration?

[Kalamata Kid]

One of the best keyboards is the Elka MK88
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... =elka+mk88&*
Made in Italy. I had it and loved it but had to sell it for reasons...

So you may be able to find one used in Italy.
Has aftertouch for each note I believe.
I liked the action, a bit on the light side.
but since you are a piano player you may
have higher requirements.

[rod_zero]

Thank you rod_zero, you did a great and in-depth analysis which helped me!
I think that I will eventually opt for Roland A800-Pro.
What can you say about this keyboard? Keybed, controls, integration?

I like Roland keys (they make their own (almost all other brands use Fatar or lesser known chinese stuff), their width is a little bit shorter than usual, only a problem if you have big fat fingers. The travel is fine, they are fast to play.

Roland doesn't provide any kind of integration, you just can configure the MIDI CC numbers the controls sends and splits/layers for the keyboard (you can select different channels for splits).

Ableton Live comes with a template for Roland Apro that makes the 8 knobs control the first 8 parameters of whatever you are focusing. I don't know about how it works in other hosts, I suppose you will have to map it.

But well maybe you should go to a store and try different brands and see what you like.