Best soft synth for beginners? Reaktor 6/Dune 2/Omnisphere/Zebra 2?

[ghettosynth]

@ghetto

Thank you for that explanation. I actually understood it.

So Reaktor COULD sound like just about anything depending on the skill level of the person using it to create the synth. So my hearing what, IMO, is essentially the same sound out of most ensembles (Monark and maybe a couple others being exceptions) is simply out of either laziness or lack of that skill.

And that is the problem I have with Reaktor in general. Very few people have really come out with instruments that really impress me both sound wise and feature wise.

I think that you have to be careful here because you are probably conflating a couple of things. First, there are really excellent instruments in Reaktor, but, they may not have come across your radar, or, they may not float your boat.

Second, I also think that very few people are going to use Reaktor to re-create common sounds for the same reason that I think that it's a waste of time. Why build Vacuum Pro when I can buy it for $15.

But probably what you're hearing is the sound of the non-core filters which, yes, will have a character. It's not a particularly unique character, mind you, it's not dissimilar from the character of the SynthEdit basic filters and it's so prevalent that you are really likely to run into it quite often. It's the sound of a 10 to 15 year old filter algorithm hard-coded into a module.

But, the ensemble that I posted earlier doesn't use those filters. It uses oversampled core filter. Note, the fact that they're core doesn't make them intrinsically better, there's no magic there, it's just a DSP language, but, the fact that they're oversampled does make them better. Moreover, you can also use ZDF and ZDF oversample filters.
Incidentally, this has been the case since at least R5.0, 6.0 just makes it easier.

[pdxindy]

If you are a true beginner then you might as well dive straight into Zebra and understand all synths after learning that one. It can be setup a simple or complex as need be.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Zebra has a fairly complex interface. It's also a very polarizing interface and so if you don't get on with it, it will slow down your learning. I hate it's interface, I think that it puts the fug in fugly. It's not smooth or functional at all.

I don't agree with Sylenth either, it is expensive and offers nothing in terms of pedagogy over any number of free synths. I would argue that it's the kind of synth that you buy when you know that you want "that" sound.

Zebra is my favorite for learning. It was the synth that made many things go aha! for me. Best learning environment IMO. It has many synthesis methods and each of them is not so complex that it is hard to learn.

I also love the GUI... The general concept is brilliant. The standard public GUI looks a bit dated and is not so pretty anymore compared to newer offerings... I happen to have access to an internal GUI that is not public yet. It looks great on the newer screens.

re Reaktor... I just do not get along with it. Too much work, too many workflow annoyances. Presets are a pain... lack of multi-core is a pain due to it having high cpu use. And building stuff is for engineers, not musicians. I think Zebra hits a great balance between ease of use and sonic flexibility. In other words - I like semi-modular better than full modular.

[ghettosynth]

If you are a true beginner then you might as well dive straight into Zebra and understand all synths after learning that one. It can be setup a simple or complex as need be.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Zebra has a fairly complex interface. It's also a very polarizing interface and so if you don't get on with it, it will slow down your learning. I hate it's interface, I think that it puts the fug in fugly. It's not smooth or functional at all.

I don't agree with Sylenth either, it is expensive and offers nothing in terms of pedagogy over any number of free synths. I would argue that it's the kind of synth that you buy when you know that you want "that" sound.

Zebra is my favorite for learning. It was the synth that made many things go aha! for me. Best learning environment IMO. It has many synthesis methods and each of them is not so complex that it is hard to learn.

I also love the GUI... The general concept is brilliant. The standard public GUI looks a bit dated and is not so pretty anymore compared to newer offerings... I happen to have access to an internal GUI that is not public yet. It looks great on the newer screens.

re Reaktor... I just do not get along with it. Too much work, too many workflow annoyances. Presets are a pain... lack of multi-core is a pain due to it having high cpu use. And building stuff is for engineers, not musicians. I think Zebra hits a great balance between ease of use and sonic flexibility. In other words - I like semi-modular better than full modular.

Well, first, you know that I have the utmost respect for your sound design skills. So, let me just say that I think that this highlights how Zebra can be polarizing. I know that you don't get along with Reaktor as well, and, I understand some of your perspective. On the other hand, I think that your assertion that it is for "engineers" is as much an overstatement as your apologies for Zebra's gui is an understatement. Don't get me wrong here, I think that Reaktor needs a serious gui overhaul itself, but, Zebra is more than just a little bit dated.

All that said, my point was more about pedagogy and this is really where wag's comment about how we're wired does matter. Zebra is not hierarchical in any way, Reaktor is, and extremely so. This can be very important from a learning point of view, in fact, it can dominate other factors. I'm not sure that you can determine your sense of this up front, but, Zebra can't be anything but what it is whereas Reaktor is many things, depending on the ensemble that you load. In other words, your perspective is really more relevant to building synths than it is to learning with a synth.

At any rate, nice hearing from you. If you're ever in Sacramento, the first beer is on me.

[pdxindy]

Well, first, you know that I have the utmost respect for your sound design skills. So, let me just say that I think that this highlights how Zebra can be polarizing. I know that you don't get along with Reaktor as well, and, I understand some of your perspective. On the other hand, I think that your assertion that it is for "engineers" is as much an overstatement as your apologies for Zebra's gui is an understatement. Don't get me wrong here, I think that Reaktor needs a serious gui overhaul itself, but, Zebra is more than just a little bit dated.

All that said, my point was more about pedagogy and this is really where wag's comment about how we're wired does matter. Zebra is not hierarchical in any way, Reaktor is, and extremely so. This can be very important from a learning point of view, in fact, it can dominate other factors. I'm not sure that you can determine your sense of this up front, but, Zebra can't be anything but what it is whereas Reaktor is many things, depending on the ensemble that you load. In other words, your perspective is really more relevant to building synths than it is to learning with a synth.

At any rate, nice hearing from you. If you're ever in Sacramento, the first beer is on me.

Yeah... the public Zebra GUI is dated for sure... As I mentioned in my post, I'm using a new GUI that is not available yet. I kinda forget that not everyone has it actually.

Regarding Reaktor, I love the sound of Reaktor Blocks. I wish it were a dedicated synth and there were no need to deal with ensembles and ensemble presets or the limitation of modulation slots.

Also, what I wrote was for some perspective for potential buyers, not to disagree with your experiences. Yes, Reaktor can be just about anything, but the workflow cost of that, in my case, makes it just clumsy enough that I don't use it. Someone else that may not be the case (such as yourself).

I happen to just jive with u-he's way of doing stuff. I think Urs hits a sweet spot between power and flexibility and ease of use. The place where Zebra most shines for me, is that when I have a very specific result in mind, Zebra is the synth that most consistently gets me right there.

My dad lives in Davis... so once a year or so I end up down in Sacto area so I might take you up on your offer

[inkwarp]

none of these is ideal for a 'beginner'. each of these if very deep so i could maybe i could say which of the 4 is the 'easiest to learn'.. but i would recommend none for a beginner.
instead : A.N.A
Synth1
Circle

then come back and ask for next step recommendations..

[EnGee]

No, Reaktor IS a programming language. It belongs to the family of languages that are referred to in the literature as "data flow" programming languages. It is not a general purpose language like C++ or Java, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a language. In fact, with the exception of infinite storage, which applies to all languages, it is Turing complete.

I'll read more about it and see, if there are conditional statements, loop operators, functions, objects (maybe!!). I will see what kind of a programming language it is, maybe it is higher than C++ (more abstract), then it would be mostly limited, but first I need to read about it. Are there books/resources other than the manual?

I'm not sure you quite get what programming language means here. I'd look up "data flow" languages on scholar. google.org for starters.

So, you could answer "yes, it is a high language with limited functionality"! But, you must add this 'superiority' to your comment, don't you?

So, there are almost NO sounds that cannot be achieved with Reaktor. If you can't get them from Reaktor, it isn't the tool, it's you.

Almost NO sounds? What are those that you can't do with Reaktor then?

Oh, and if one of us is going to an easier/less hassle synth than Reaktor to get what he/she wants, it is because his/her inability to program but if you do the same, it is because you are a clever!

You're projecting, that's a statement of fact and nothing more. There are very few DSP algorithms that can't be implemented in Reaktor, so, if you think that you can get some filter or oscillator sound outside of Reaktor that you can't get in Reaktor, it's almost certain that you're just wrong.

So, you have only Reaktor and according to you, there is no need to any other synthesizer. Is that what you want to say? In your humble opinion?

No, you see, this is a problem that many people who aren't skilled in arguing seem to have. In essence, you are creating a strawman, I never said that. I said that you can get almost any sound, modulo CPU consumption out of Reaktor. However, let's get back down to earth here, you were talking about a "soft pad", and then, when pressed, you couldn't come up with even one example. So let's not elevate your inability to get a soft pad from Reaktor into a claim from me that there's no value to owning other synths, ok?

I already told you about NI Prism! Just browse the pads in it and you would understand what I mean. Is it that difficult to understand?! Take 'Lonely Molecules', the first preset in the Pad category. Oh, you don't have Prism! Because you can do everything with the basic modules in Reaktor! My bad!

Can you even name a synth that you think creates soft pads?

Yes, Wavestation, Hybrid 3, and even FM8. All, those have softer character than Reaktor Prism or Razor.

Or, more likely, you are just elevating your past perception into a position and then getting bent when you're getting called on it. I can appreciate that you haven't found sounds that you like in existing Reaktor ensembles, but that has nothing to do with it's ability to create such sounds.

Well, if I find myself wrong, I would gladly confess that, even if it is an opinion that I changed. I come here to either get useful info or entertain myself. I'm not 'showy' guy! That's not funny or useful (like most of your posts really ).

[V0RT3X]

So to sum it up for the op..

PICK ZEBRA2

[ghettosynth]

I'll read more about it and see, if there are conditional statements, loop operators, functions, objects (maybe!!). I will see what kind of a programming language it is, maybe it is higher than C++ (more abstract), then it would be mostly limited, but first I need to read about it. Are there books/resources other than the manual?

I'm not sure you quite get what programming language means here. I'd look up "data flow" languages on scholar. google.org for starters.

So, you could answer "yes, it is a high language with limited functionality"! But, you must add this 'superiority' to your comment, don't you?

No, you miss my point, there isn't really much, if anything, on Reaktor, per se, in that context.

Here's a short discussion to get your started.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4617 ... -languages

So, there are almost NO sounds that cannot be achieved with Reaktor. If you can't get them from Reaktor, it isn't the tool, it's you.

Almost NO sounds? What are those that you can't do with Reaktor then?

That's how people speak carefully. There are almost certainly examples of algorithms that run into specific limitations of Reaktor from a practical point of view. FFT is often mentioned as something that is challenging in Reaktor.

However, let's get back down to earth here, you were talking about a "soft pad", and then, when pressed, you couldn't come up with even one example. So let's not elevate your inability to get a soft pad from Reaktor into a claim from me that there's no value to owning other synths, ok?

I already told you about NI Prism! Just browse the pads in it and you would understand what I mean. Is it that difficult to understand?! Take 'Lonely Molecules', the first preset in the Pad category. Oh, you don't have Prism! Because you can do everything with the basic modules in Reaktor! My bad!

Yes, I do have Prism, but that isn't what I asked. I asked what are examples of "soft pads" that you think can't be done in Reaktor.

Now that you're getting more specific, it's pretty clear that you are just associating a specific style of Reaktor instrument with your perception of a Reaktor limitation. Prism is a fantastic instrument, but, it' wouldn't be my first choice for a typical warm pad.

Can you even name a synth that you think creates soft pads?

Yes, Wavestation, Hybrid 3, and even FM8. All, those have softer character than Reaktor Prism or Razor.

Ok, first, Prism and Razor hardly define what Reaktor is capable of. Second, both Hybrid 3 and FM8 create sounds that are easily covered by any number of Reaktor ensembles. Hell, I love FM8, but it has a very mediocre filter that is easily bested by many Reaktor filters. There are numerous FM synths in Reaktor, if that's your thing. Check out Nanowave for a simple wavetable oriented synth in the factory library.

Even the ensemble that I shared above has quite a few soft pads in the factory patches. Check out Carbon 2 and Photone for examples from the factory library for some elaborate pads. That said, you do realize that virtually any synth with a filter and an envelope with an attack phase is capable of a soft pad, right?

Try loading Equinoxe Deluxe from the factory library, bring up the attack, roll down the cutoff, and you have soft string pad.

When you get bored with all of that, there are endless examples of pad focused synths in the user library.

Or, more likely, you are just elevating your past perception into a position and then getting bent when you're getting called on it. I can appreciate that you haven't found sounds that you like in existing Reaktor ensembles, but that has nothing to do with it's ability to create such sounds.

Well, if I find myself wrong, I would gladly confess that, even if it is an opinion that I changed. I come here to either get useful info or entertain myself. I'm not 'showy' guy! That's not funny or useful (like most of your posts really ).

The word that you're reaching for is "correct."

[EnGee]

I'll read more about it and see, if there are conditional statements, loop operators, functions, objects (maybe!!). I will see what kind of a programming language it is, maybe it is higher than C++ (more abstract), then it would be mostly limited, but first I need to read about it. Are there books/resources other than the manual?

I'm not sure you quite get what programming language means here. I'd look up "data flow" languages on scholar. google.org for starters.

So, you could answer "yes, it is a high language with limited functionality"! But, you must add this 'superiority' to your comment, don't you?

No, you miss my point, there isn't really much, if anything, on Reaktor, per se, in that context.

Here's a short discussion to get your started.


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4617 ... -languages

I didn't miss your point! It is a visual language without the ability to be extended like for example Max/Msp does with JavaScript (among others):
https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/vignettes/jsintro

Anyway, have you used Reaktor Visual environment to 'write' or 'lego' your macros? Or again you just being 'showy'?

That's how people speak carefully...etc.

Ok Mr. Filter!
I don't have the capacity for your 'careful' talk! I just can't find it useful, that's all. Sorry, I prefer to waste my time in another activity. (yes, i'm escaping ... hello John! Sorry, this is John in the other side of the street! I must go now, see yea!).

[ghettosynth]

I didn't miss your point! It is a visual language without the ability to be extended like for example Max/Msp does with JavaScript (among others):
https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/vignettes/jsintro

Yes, I own max, but you're still missing the point. Reaktor IS a language and none of your comments change that. I still don't think that you're entirely groking what is required for such a definition or why it matters here. Being able to extend one language with another has no impact on anything that we're talking about.

Anyway, have you used Reaktor Visual environment to 'write' or 'lego' your macros? Or again you just being 'showy'?

That sentence doesn't parse. Just guessing at what you're trying to get at, languages do not have to be text based to be a language. In fact, text is just one form of program representation. Generally, it's a trivial exercise to translate one form to another, given that one has access to the structure of the source. With Reaktor this isn't practical for the end user as NI does not share the file formats for their various components.

That's how people speak carefully...etc.

Ok Mr. Filter!
I don't have the capacity for your 'careful' talk! I just can't find it useful, that's all. Sorry, I prefer to waste my time in another activity. (yes, i'm escaping ... hello John! Sorry, this is John in the other side of the street! I must go now, see yea!).

[/quote]

Said differently, it's easier to run away than admit that you were wrong. I get that. Say hi to John for me.

[fmr]

Yes, Wavestation, Hybrid 3, and even FM8. All, those have softer character than Reaktor Prism or Razor.

Ok, first, Prism and Razor hardly define what Reaktor is capable of. Second, both Hybrid 3 and FM8 create sounds that are easily covered by any number of Reaktor ensembles. Hell, I love FM8, but it has a very mediocre filter that is easily bested by many Reaktor filters. There are numerous FM synths in Reaktor, if that's your thing. Check out Nanowave for a simple wavetable oriented synth in the factory library.

William K from Wusik built an emulation of Wavestation long ago, when he was starting (many probably don't know but he is also the creator of one of the first and craziest ensembles that was included in Reaktor Factory library, called InhumanLogic. It was part of the Premium Library that came with Reaktor 3).

Later on he made the mentioned Wavetsation like Ensemble, and also a Roland D-50 like Ensemble, launched under a label called Dash Synthesis (which also included other renowned builders). I think he was forced to call those back by Roland and Korg (perhaps because he was using the ROm wavefiles), but I still have those Ensembles. I can tell you that, although those were not 100% faithful (naturally) he did a hell of a job with them. I have been keeping them updated for recent versions of Reaktor by opening, editing and re-saving them in each new version of Reaktor, up to version 5.

So, to end up the story, yes, Reaktor can do soft pads in the style of both D-50 and Wavestation. It also can do pretty much anything else.

And I think that Ghettosynth forgot to mention that Core Language (which is the basis for Core Cells) is indeed a programming language, and it's built-in as part of Reaktor since version 5. You can know more about it with this PDF: https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... ual_EN.pdf

[izonin]

Reaktor is the best, of course. You can build any synth you want. Create any sound you imagine.
But it's not something I'd recommend to a beginner.

From the synths mentioned earlier, it probably would have to be A.N.A. That plugin was specifically created for learning purposes.

[ghettosynth]

Reaktor is the best, of course. You can build any synth you want. Create any sound you imagine.
But it's not something I'd recommend to a beginner.

From the synths mentioned earlier, it probably would have to be A.N.A. That plugin was specifically created for learning purposes.

As was SoundSchool Analog, which you will find under classics/synthesizer.

[KBSoundSmith]

I'm not going to tell somebody to spend $200 on Reaktor if all they're going to do is pull up an ensemble and play presets with no desire to get any deeper than that. Somebody doing that and that ONLY is spending $200 that doesn't need to be spent.

In this particular case, the thread starter can get Reaktor for $100, though (due to educational discount).

Actually, if the OP can get Reaktor for only $100, that isn't a bad idea.

I DID say that freebies would be good to start, or to get Zebra. But $100 for Reaktor is hard to argue against.

I actually got my introduction to synthesis via Csound (a great book for diving in is https://www.contemponet.com/shop/virtual-sound/?lang=en ). It's a great way to really learn synthesis and digital audio. From that perspective, Reaktor isn't much of a stretch, and I think there's plenty to be said for starting there.

[InLight-Tone]

I spent many many years in Csound, that is a mind f**k for sure but it was the first softsynth that you could play in real time from a computer so I was all over it. Reaktor is WAY easier than that.

I think for the OP that Zebra + Reaktor is a great combo. Zebra is immediate, there's tons of presets available and it covers so many genres. Reaktor is best for long term, you'll never exhaust it...