KVR Audio

dformd · Post by **dformd** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:36 pm

Hey! Just started demoing Bitwig 2, and really enjoying the flexibility of it's modulation system; range of modulators, ease of assignment, wide ranging assignabilty, interconnectivity (for example: being able to easily assign control of one lfo from another lfo, controlled by another lfo, controlled by another lfo), but I'll shortly be demoing Ableton Live and exploring how the two differ in this regard.

Nevertheless, I thought I'd see if anyone here has any strong opinions on how they compare. I'm guessing Ableton Live is flexible enough to perform similar modulation tasks, but I imagine they may differ in ease of setup, and some other respects I haven't thought of. Especially since I haven't compared them yet myself.

Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:43 pm

I think Live has been somewhat a victim of its own extensibility via M4L. While there probably are devices that replicate many of those functions I would have to hunt around in a few dozen different places to find them all and even then they feel a bit like addons rather than functional building blocks within the host itself. The convenience of Bitwig is they are all right where you want them ready to insert into devices and chains.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Bitwig's modulation is far superior to Live's

Not even close.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:59 pm

If you don't mind inferior built in instruments and disregard the M4L overall power.
Superior integration in BW for sure.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:37 pm

and Bitwig 2 finally supports the interior multi/cross tracks modulation using

through MIDICC > MIDI Note Reveiver >> CC modulator inside some device (so it can be used not just for hardware related modulations) the modulated CC signal(with the channel number) can be sent to anywhere inside the application (ofc. the CC signal can come from some CC based clip automation too)

M4L in AL can do cross track automation/modulation things, but it's missed from BWS 1

sovietpop · Post by **sovietpop** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:14 am

Modulator in Bitwig are amazing.
The built in device right now are ok but not amazing but with the modulators, the sampler for example, is so much more powerful.
I did some crazy granular stuff with the sampler. The delays are nice and very flexible. I have a simple patch where the delay is modulated by a step modulator and the feedback fx slot use Decapitator + reverb modulated with several LFOs. I like the fact that i can create huge fx patch and save theme as presets. I have lots of hardware so the CV stuff and midi CC device are going to be very useful.

thetechnobear · Post by **thetechnobear** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:00 pm

BWS modulators have a few advantages over M4L/Live
- easier to use
- can be polyphonic
- easier to assign to multiple destinations
- Id expect less cpu/better timing (though this is a bit of a guess)

Live/M4L advantages is simple
- flexibility and extensibility
- there are lots of 3rd party modulators that are much more 'creative' that bitwigs offering.
e.g. encoder audio's offering... http://www.encoderaudio.com/control.html
- its pretty simple to use the M4L mapping code (in the toolbox) to create your own modulators if you use Max.
- M4L can affect the entire DAW, e.g. Ive written M4L objects to alter record/soloing states, trigger clips etc , its great for tailoring performance setups.

until BWS releases its modular environment... use BWS for ease of use, Live if you want the extra flexibility/creative stuff.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:16 pm

While pure modulators in BW shipped with BW may be better (i never demoed BW) - M4L is universe of modulators and is superior to any BW modulating plugin - if you are willing to dig in to it.

On another perspective M4L offer so i mean sooooo much more. Example - i can build my own step sequencer i actually did it). Which fit exactly what and how i want it on my screen. For my own subjective workflow.

I even started to work on my personal visual Integra 7 editor which will have some unique features not found even in original Roland editor.

The point is - M4L is superior but pitta to learn.

Try to demo both and see for yourself. From people perspective it seems that usual shipped BW modulators are better then those shipped with Ableton plus you have to have Suite or M4l separate license. Not cheap. But then again with m4l you get so much more versatility - if and only if - you need that.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:07 pm

kmonkey wrote:While pure modulators in BW shipped with BW may be better (i never demoed BW) - M4L is universe of modulators and is superior to any BW modulating plugin - if you are willing to dig in to it.

That last is the key... M4L is for coders. It is a complex world of stuff to have to figure out in order to use it. And yes, it is possible to build just about anything in M4L but it is the opposite of user friendly. And the M4L devices are still dependent on the basic modulation setup in Live.

In Bitwig it is so easy to use modulation. Add the modulator. Click on the modulator assign arrow for that modulator and then click-drag any modulatable control to assign/create range. I can add an LFO and modulate any number of different parameters, each with their easily controlled range. I can assign like 10-20 different parameters and set ranges in seconds.

It is super easy to make modulators modulate each other.

When you have a device selected, the inspector panel shows all the added modulators and what parameters are being modulated.

Also, Bitwig modulators can be polyphonic (per voice) with Bitwig Instruments.

For me, ease of use is a critical feature. I never used M4L (as in building stuff) cause it is way too complicated. And as a user of existing devices, the M4L library was always hit or miss (more miss than hit). Lots of the stuff there is out of date, buggy, no longer supported. Also, Live without M4L is very stable for me, but it gets more crash prone when relying on M4L. So I mostly stopped using M4L except in small measured amounts.

M4L is a separate application that needs to be installed and registered. Without it, Live does not even have an LFO.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:28 pm

kmonkey wrote: The point is - M4L is superior but pitta to learn.

Define superior? More capable, absolutely. But if one measures by the ease of use of doing basic stuff like adding an envelope and modulating 3-4 parameters on a synth or effect with it, then Bitwig is superior. Then add in the new Remote Control panels and how nicely they integrate with the modulation.

It really depends on individual priority. Me, if something feels clunky, I just end up not using it much (which was my experience of M4L) which means in practice it is less capable cause I don't use it.

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:48 pm

sovietpop wrote:
I did some crazy granular stuff with the sampler.

If you don't mind the clicks

There is No crossfade or windowing function for the loop section

Tearing Riots · Post by **Tearing Riots** » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:47 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:
sovietpop wrote:
I did some crazy granular stuff with the sampler.
If you don't mind the clicks
There is No crossfade or windowing function for the loop section

There's a short fade applied automatically, wish that could be deactivated. Sounds quite good for some granular stuff though.

Edit: Apparently they changed that a bit, the attack fade on note start is gone.
For granular scanning with the loop position creates quite a bit of hf content. But there´s a better way, as notes are not midi within bitwig you can do granular with audio rate notes, the note echo is esp. useful for that.

dformd · Post by **dformd** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:24 pm

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts!
I'm still testing and demoing (actually haven't got to Ableton Live yet), but I've replied to your comments below:

aMUSEd:
Yes; I’m definitely attracted to how the modulation system is so well integrated into the over-all system. Bitwig seems like it could become my dream software modular. That said, I’m aware of the potential for disappointment when purchasing software for what one hopes it will become. Nevertheless, it is quite inspiring right now. As well, if I really do find myself wanting to create my own devices (before Bitwig’s promised((?)) modular environment arrives) I can load in Bidule as a plugin and go to town. Bidule’s perhaps not as sexy looking as M4L, but I’ve spent enough time building devices with it to know it’s a very powerful environment as well. Still, I rather appreciate not feeling like I need to build modulation devices to fill in host gaps; it can be a major time-suck for me; partly because I’m rarely completely satisfied with my creations; I’m quite picky.

pdxindy:
Yup; the ease / speed of use is a major selling feature for me. The modulation system they’ve created seems very thought through / considered. I’m much like you: if it “… feels clunky, I just end up not using it much …”. When I was at art school I often tried to develop my own ways of working and my own approach to mediums; my guiding principle was “fun, easy, inexpensive, and expressive”; otherwise I typically wasn’t motivated enough to work that way. Working on computer-based music I’ve laboured to find methods that satisfied those criteria. Bitwig has surprised me in that it appears (thus far) to check off all those boxes.

liquidsound:
I understand; I recognize with Bitwig I would not be getting a wealth of great Ableton instruments and effects, and it’s certainly something for me to consider. Still, I’ve been quite happy collecting and using plugins for years, and I was surprised at how well Bitwig integrates the plugins I own. Also, I’m a long-time Bidule user and am no stranger to rolling my own devices using it. Actually, I’m quite fond of building my own modulators and sequencers, but doing so has often been a time-consuming distraction and my knit-picking over my Bidule creations has often led to me not getting to the project I imagined using them for (completing a track with them). I get new project ideas seemingly constantly, and my projects often get derailed while I try to build the devices (many of which Bitwig now largly incorporates) to make them a reality. I actually have some concern that having the power of M4L will become yet another distraction from finishing a track.

xbitz:
That’s very interesting; I didn’t know about the multi/cross tracks modulation option.

sovietpop:
I feel ya; I’m a bit of a fan of taking relatively simple sound generation/manipulation devices/plugins and modulating the hell out of them to get them singing.

thetechnobear:
The fact that M4L can affect the entire DAW is very intriguing, and I’ll have to take that into consideration. I loved that I could control all of Renoise with MIDI and essentially turn it into a standalone instrument. Those Encoder Audio M4L offerings do look excellent. My main concern is that all the 3rd party modulators and such will add up to a world of distracting possibilities that will take me away from completing tracks.
I feel like I fell down the Bidule rabbit hole for years and now I just want less distractions, and more integration; a simpler setup ultimately.

kmonkey:
I hear yah. However, you brought up another point that is a main one for me; I’d need the Live Suite version. In fact; I know I’d want the whole shebang eventually (even if I started with the mid-range version of Live), and I’m pretty sure my purchasing wouldn’t stop there; I’d want Push 2, and I’d be buying shit-tons of 3rd party M4L stuff. I’m actually trying (in many other aspects of my life as well) to curb my impulse to collect, and collect, and collect. I find the collecting in itself a distraction. Plus I’m trying to save money for other things; a Traktor S8 and decent monitors. So I should add that my financial concerns are a factor. That said, I’m not so naive that I don’t recognize I may want to do things that Live makes possible and Bitwig requires other apps to make happen; video and visuals integration being a main one that comes to mind.

gentleclockdivider:
Yikes; I didn’t know about the lack of crossfade or windowing. Really glad you mentioned this.

Tearing Riots:
Interesting; will explore.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:47 pm

I have Max 7 (Live suite) and it never really clicked for me, I knew it was clever and flexible, even tried to read a book on it, but just ended up getting bored....I just want t do musical things quickly, from the brain to the DAW in a few clicks. I am a Eurorack user so all of the 'modulators' in BW just made sense to me, didn't need a manual for 90% of it- its intuitive and musical. I am sure MAX can do more, but I don't need any more! I like the GUI, the browser, the visual feedback...it all just seems to work for me.

One things I can say, Max in Live never put a smile on my face like BW modulators...

mcnelson · Post by **mcnelson** » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:19 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if Live 10 came with some native modulators - people have been asking for a native LFO for ages; Bitwig has now been around long enough to eat into the Ableton market, they'd be foolish to not address some of the reasons people would be ditching Live for Bitwig.

Having some competition can be a good thing.

Bitwig 2's new modulation system vs Ableton Live's modulation options