Endless possibilities - but everyone thinking along the same route?

[jancivil]

I come from a time where there was no youtube tutes, no youtube, no internet, no MacBook, no personal computers.

Who needs the youtube tutorials? A basic subtractive synth might be a whole universe, get in there and twist some knobs. FFS.

What was George Martin's thesis 'All You Need Is Ears'? Yeah, we all have to climb up onto hopefully the shoulders of those who were there first. But you do not require the body frames of mediocrities with half-a-clue_maybe. Do your own thing.

[ghettosynth]

Even if I strongly disagree aesthetically. They do not go about calling themselves 'producer'

When I use the word it never meant to be taken as label of identity, it is not a cultural thing, it is a label of function.

You may not identify with the label, but unless someone else plays that roll for you, it is what you, like most here do. You produce music works. It encompasses all roles, composition, arrangement, sound design, mixing, mastering, even distribution to some extent. It does not define the distribution of effort over those roles, which, clearly, varies considerably from person to person and even from work to work from the same individual.

[jancivil]

It doesn't define the distribution of roles per se, but it does when it does.
I hate to have to say this, but composers feel free to call themselves _composers_.
People that are in the composer game call composers _composers_.
The word 'producer' has been perverted by the EDM usages. If that type of statement makes me a snob, or whatever, so be it.

Frank Zappa was a producer. He produced himself (after a point), he produced Grand Funk Railroad. He employed mixing engineers, however.
You won't cure me of my attitudes about self-ident'ing as *producers*. If the presentation here goes 'I'm a producer...' I have no time for it. Should you care? Maybe not.

Did you COMPOSE something that required producing in order to present as more complete?

[jancivil]

You produce music works. It encompasses all roles, composition, arrangement, sound design, mixing, mastering, even distribution to some extent.

Well, where I come from, which I guarantee has more historical weight than this thing you presented to me, it does_not in itself "encompass" composing (or even mastering necessarily). The producer, George Martin, may have composed some_of Beatles, he arranged, orchestrated, he determined practices in the studio. He did more than a lot of producers, this is a fact.

There are hard rock producers TODAY who do_not compose the music on the record. This is a function of eg., KVR Forums, your 'definition'. I learned to mix myself because I'm broke-ass. Could I mix for a living? Untested. Here's the thing: the last time I was in the studio (and I SHOULD HAVE been the producer, the product will have been MUCH better than with famousass Don Falcone) I wasn't allowed to touch the board.

I would not produce a calling-card advert'ing 'Producer!' unless I'd produced someone else.

[ghettosynth]

You produce music works. It encompasses all roles, composition, arrangement, sound design, mixing, mastering, even distribution to some extent.

Well, where I come from, which I guarantee has more historical weight than this thing you presented to me.

That is A denotation of the word. It really has much less to do with EDM than you make it out to be, rather, it's the evolution of how the word is used with respect to people who create music by themselves in a home studio.

You can claim to have the right definition to your grave, I won't give a shit. How I use the word is common today and I'm only explaining so that it's clear. Of all of the terms used above, it is the one who's lay definition is closest.

Seriously, I fully understand what a "producer" does in a traditional music context. What you don't seem to understand is that this EDM thing isn't about choosing a different word, it is exactly as I have described, it is the word that is closest to the lay definition. That is "producers" don't label themselves as such because of any confusion, rather, they understand exactly what I've explained to you. It is because much, if not most, "EDM" is, wait for it, "produced", in small self contained studios by one or two people who are responsible for the entire process. Granted, successful producers don't master their own works.

That is, you are a producer of a thing.

[camsr]

It's fair to say that there are many unskilled producers making recordings and still having a good time of it. People who build musical instruments are not considered producers in this arena, yet producers often require instruments to provide to their talent, whether it be themselves or other musicians. They also have a vision/goal for the final outcome and this is what guides a producer's choices through the creative process. A musical composer also has some shared responsibility with what a producer does, as does everyone else involved with a project. From my experience, the term Producer is applied to those who manage a project and help make it exist, whether creatively or financially.

[nix808]

Yep-
the term has changed from when a producer was a manager though,
and now means an electronic artist pretty much

[ghettosynth]

From my experience, the term Producer is applied to those who manage a project and help make it exist, whether creatively or financially.

Which, of course, if you are the only person making your music exist, that's you, no matter what other labels that you identify with.

I produce every record that I make.
I sometimes compose.
I sometimes master.
I sometime mix.

Maybe you always do all of these things, but, unless you give the role of producer to someone else, you are always the producer of your own works.

We call the process of producing works, "production."

You know what this stupid argument reminds me of. One of my "friends" from days gone by felt himself superior because he played percussion in orchestra, in high school, and referred to the bass drum as a bass drum as opposed to a kick drum. Which, of course it is, when it's a bass drum, which is a specific instrument, and which many kick drums are not.

[Rappo Clappo]

Well, there's ABBA with SOS

[ghettosynth]

Well, there's ABBA with SOS

Totally weak bass in that one.

[camsr]

I think what bugs some people is that the term Producer embues a certain level of professionalism. I, for example, could call myself a musician, but I'm not very good performing with ANY instruments . I understand music theory (had a 1 year high school course), but I couldn't call myself a composer either. I think it involves requiring notoriety for achievements in said professions, rather than the self-indentifing nature of the words themselves. TLDR Music Industry Elitism Smashs Hope And Dreams

[ghettosynth]

I think what bugs some people is that the term Producer embues a certain level of professionalism. I, for example, could call myself a musician, but I'm not very good performing with ANY instruments . I understand music theory (had a 1 year high school course), but I couldn't call myself a composer either. I think it involves requiring notoriety for achievements in said professions, rather than the self-indentifing nature of the words themselves. TLDR Music Industry Elitism Smashs Hope And Dreams

Sure, I get that. Now, choose a better word? That's really the bottom line. If you claim to be a musician and you don't play an instrument in the traditional sense, then people will also get peeved. Same with composer, mixing engineer, mastering engineer, etc.

What the vast majority of us do here is "produce" music in our home studios. That makes use "producers." That's what the word means today in a context like this. Context is often use to distinguish meanings of words.

Talk to a lay person, the word "Normal" means something, statisticians use the word, usually, to mean something else, and it has another meaning in mathematics, that also has a statistical connotation, but does not mean the same thing that statisticians mean. I suppose stats guys get annoyed at other mathematicians for abusing the word in the same way that "real" producers get mad at people in home studios.

Get over it, the context makes it clear.

[xoxos]

endless possibilities

but, kvr

tough being a visionary or futurist or aquarian or revisionist or redactivist or thingy doer, got to get up, dust your butt off and take personal responsibility for making sure that anything at all whatsoever happens, ever. and that's the thing. nurture and cultivate that vision and raise it good and proper, or not. bloody things, pita.

thing about the watering hole, might get a croc on your beak.

[Zombie Queen]

Did you COMPOSE something that required producing in order to present as more complete?

I think, the new idea is to take nothing and keep producing it, until it becomes a track.

[ghettosynth]

Did you COMPOSE something that required producing in order to present as more complete?

I think, the new idea is to take nothing and keep producing it, until it becomes a track.

I don't call it composing when I just improvise, or, when I use some process to create that relies on some technical manipulation to create melody/harmony. I don't even call it composition when I use algorithmic methods that yield midi or some other " score" either. Others might, I don't know. It's just so indistinct from other production efforts that I just call it production.

I can't remember the titles, but I've seen "compositions" that are simply descriptions of how to create an experimental piece, e.g, "wind up 45 metronomes...." I suppose composers call that composing?