POLL: should we sample the DX7 or the DX5? Please help!

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)

Should we sample our DX7 cartridge sounds through the DX7IID or through the DX5?

DX7IID (15/16-bit mass produced convertors)
4
9%
DX5 (12/14-bit hand-picked convertors)
19
42%
Fish
22
49%
 
Total votes: 45

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Hi guys,

We have a question for you! :D

At the moment the lab is overrun with DX synths, and having had a lot of fun putting together some love-them-or-loathe-them DX Keys instruments (which we released back before the hols) we're now hard at work on PatchVault versions of our machines. For those of you not in the know, PatchVault instruments are simple, easy-to-use Kontakt recreations of the factory patches of vintage synths: we've done things like the Roland Jupiter 6, Korg PolySix, Ensoniq SQ80 and – in December – the Yamaha DX5. PatchVault instruments have some basic tweakability so you can tailor the sounds, but the emphasis is really on getting those classic patches for pennies not pounds (they sell at a flat rate of 20p per patch). Here's what the UI looks like so you can get an idea of how they work:

Image

Having done the DX5 (which has the same factory soundset as the DX1), we're now sampling the DX7IID, and it's fascinating to listen to the difference between the two machines. The DX5 uses Yamaha's earlier 12 / 14-bit DACs, which in the original DX7 yielded quite a hissy output. In the DX5, though, they're tethered to more robust circuitry and rumour has it they were, like the convertors in the flagship DX1, hand-picked by Yamaha's engineers rather than simply being pulled from a bin; so the DX5 and DX1 have a substantial sonic edge over the original DX7. Many people say they have more heft and sound more "analog" than typical DX machines.

Then came the improved DX7II series (we have the D version), which used 15 / 16-bit DACs (basically, 16-bit chips which discarded one bit's worth of info). These completely ditched the hiss and yielded a much cleaner, shinier, clearer sound than the 1st-gen DX7. Most people prefer them for this reason (though a few don't because, hey, life would be boring if we all agreed).

To our ears the DX7II series sounds better than the original DX7; but the DX5 and DX1 sound better than anything else. (Yes, we've owned all of these at some point or another, and have the hernias to prove it.)

Now to the question.

Yamaha released a series of sound cartridges for the original DX7 which included a lot of impressive, unusual sounds, and we've managed to score a full set of these. With a little convertor cradle the DX7IID is perfectly capable of reading the cartridges; and the DX5 can of course load them too. We're looking at sampling these cartridge patches in PatchVault form. It's a fairly mammoth project since there are lots of cartridges and lots of patches so we want to be sure we go about it in the right way! So these are our options:

1) We could sample them from the DX7IID, which would give a crystal-clear, hiss-free output with all the top-end sheen and sparkle you expect from "the DX sound".

2) Or we could sample them from the DX5, which would give what we feel is a weightier, beefier sound but with a small amount of high-end roll-off and a small amount of (very controlled, almost analog-style) noise.

It may also be worth bearing in mind that the DX7 "sound" has, if we're honest, been sampled quite a lot over the years; and indeed there are some very good software emulators (like FM8) that give you a very, very close approximation of it. By contrast, the DX5 / DX1 "sound" is far less well known, and sounds distinctly different (and to our ears much more musically interesting).

You can probably tell which way we're leaning on this one, but we wanted to put the question out there and let you let us know – hence the poll! It's at the top of the post: please vote for how you'd like us to approach this project: like I said, if we're going to take on something this big, we'd like to get it right :D

And of course do drop us any questions, comments or thoughts below (though please try to keep any DX hate to a minimum...! :lol: )

A happy New Year to you all,

The Professor (and Mongo)

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my vote goes for the sy22.
Image

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With several DX7 emulators (FM8 and DeXed come to mind immediately) what is the interest in having dead "photographs" of the presets? Wouldn't it be better to load the patches in one of the AM emulators, being able to fully edit the sound, instead of loading the samples and being stuck with the end sound?
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote:With several DX7 emulators (FM8 and DeXed come to mind immediately) what is the interest in having dead "photographs" of the presets? Wouldn't it be better to load the patches in one of the AM emulators, being able to fully edit the sound, instead of loading the samples and being stuck with the end sound?
You have a very good point as far as sampling the DX7IID goes. I think the argument's a lot stronger if you consider sampling the DX5 (and doing it well, of course...! :D ) – simply because the sound is pretty distinct to FM8 and DeXed, both of which are excellent emulations in their own right but which definitely favour the cleaner sound. (FM8, for example, doesn't sound as "weighty" as the hardware to my ears at least, though YMMV.)

– Prof

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Wrong topic I know professor but the real question is when are you guys going to put out a wavetable library? I know you have a SQ80 patch vault but I'm talking like a full blown ppg or Waldorf synth or even a prophet vs type library.

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Doc Brown wrote:Wrong topic I know professor but the real question is when are you guys going to put out a wavetable library? I know you have a SQ80 patch vault but I'm talking like a full blown ppg or Waldorf synth or even a prophet vs type library.
The moment we buy one! :lol:

Yes, we're very tempted to do this. Keep your fingers crossed and we promise not to forget. Meanwhile, cast a vote for which DX you fancy :wink:

– Prof

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Sample from DX5 please

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The DX7 and its various iterations were some of the most boring synths ever made and single-handedly prompted the death of good synth music in the late 80s.

People flocked to buy them then couldn't work out how to program a single new sound. Consequently the same crap rinky-tinky presets got used over and over and over again.

The lazy preset mentality was begun and defined by these horrid machines.

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the professor wrote: And of course do drop us any questions, comments or thoughts below (though please try to keep any DX hate to a minimum...! :lol: )
spirit wrote:The DX7 and its various iterations were some of the most boring synths ever made and single-handedly prompted the death of good synth music in the late 80s.

People flocked to buy them then couldn't work out how to program a single new sound. Consequently the same crap rinky-tinky presets got used over and over and over again.

The lazy preset mentality was begun and defined by these horrid machines.
If that's you "keeping it to a minimum", we're perversely keen to hear the full-on rant now! :lol:

I have to say that generally I agree with you about the gratuitous over-use. But I don't agree that they were boring synths. The synthesis method itself is actually hugely expressive and while I'm not personally a fan of metallic bell sounds, the brass and pad patches you can coax from a DX can be wonderful and evolving. There's a lot to play with in the synth structure that can yield really unusual textures if you have the time to dedicate to it.

But you're very sadly correct about them being tough to program. I do know how to program a DX (I was geeky and I read the books!) but it will still take me half an hour at least to get the sound I want out of one, compared to 2 or 3 minutes on, say, the SH7 or the Jupiter 6. And that's having been exposed to DXs since I was 15 (several thousand years ago now). And of course it's that programming difficulty led to the infamous statistic that something like 99% of DX7s returned for service came back with all their factory presets intact, showing just how underutilised they really were :( If there's a fault here, though, I'd have to say it lies in the UI control decisions Yamaha made, not in the synthesis engine itself.

I also don't think you can point the finger solely at the DXs for the death of good music in the 80s. White funk and chart pop were already booming before the first DX7 rolled off the production lines :D

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fmr wrote:With several DX7 emulators (FM8 and DeXed come to mind immediately) what is the interest in having dead "photographs" of the presets? Wouldn't it be better to load the patches in one of the AM emulators, being able to fully edit the sound, instead of loading the samples and being stuck with the end sound?
My thoughts exactly. A lot of work for a questionable goal.

/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!

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fmr wrote:With several DX7 emulators (FM8 and DeXed come to mind immediately) what is the interest in having dead "photographs" of the presets? Wouldn't it be better to load the patches in one of the AM emulators, being able to fully edit the sound, instead of loading the samples and being stuck with the end sound?


:tu:

I also agree with this...

Sampled synths are a waste of hard drive space...

The're about as interesting as watching a dead pigeon :wink:
No auto tune...

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digitalboytn wrote: Sampled synths are a waste of hard drive space...

The're about as interesting as watching a dead pigeon :wink:
Aw, c'mon! Dead pigeons can be interesting:



:o

– Prof

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Though, possibly, I should try to make a better point... :hihi:

– Prof

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If we're talking Yamaha FM, how bout PF80? Sampled both line out and speakers (player position, please). But seriously, folks... I miss my 75lb behemoth... :cry: :)
You need to limit that rez, bro.

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Sounds fantastic, personally I think it's an amazing contribution to put these sounds from a complete set of dx7 carts through the dx5, then make it available in kontakt. For historical value alone it's fantastic, I can't wait to hear them! No doubt they will be musically useful too. Please let us know when you've started this! I'll be waiting with wallet ready!

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