Not pop for sure but the artier more experimental side of prog certainly ventured into atonal territory - thinking of Henry Cow, This Heat, Peter Hammill, Slapp Happy, Annette Peacock, even some relatively more 'mainstream' artists like Beefheart, Genesis, Floyd and Tom Waits have gone there at times.skipscada wrote:If it's atonal through and through, it's not going to be perceived as pop or rock anymore.
Examples Of Tonal And Atonal Music
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- KVRAF
- 37411 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
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- KVRAF
- 37411 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Same with the more experimentally inclined post punks and New wavers - Raincoats for example, ATV, The door and the window, Swell Maps (I guess This Heat kindof go here too - they are a crossover between prog and post punk/NW)
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- KVRAF
- 37411 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Of course honourable mention to Can and similar 'Kraut' rock experimentalists (Amon Dhul etc)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7001 posts since 20 Mar, 2012 from Babbleon
Supposedly, Echoes by Pink Floyd is atonal music (I don't believe it).
Edit: on second listen the second half of Echoes could be atonal music but the first half doesn't sound atonal to me but of course I could be wrong.
And these are all supposed to be atonal music as well:
Edit: on second listen the second half of Echoes could be atonal music but the first half doesn't sound atonal to me but of course I could be wrong.
And these are all supposed to be atonal music as well:
ah böwakawa poussé poussé
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Ok, this is a good time to get into the 'music theory' of it, particularly since someone felt they had to move it here.
I don't very much believe in the word 'atonal', actually.
Schönberg, the inventor of serial dodecaphony (unless I missed something) found that the goal was kind of unattainable in the end and wound up to write music accordingly.
'tonal' music to me carries a limited meaning. There is quite a bit of it in pop music of today, and what I've been exposed to is all in C Major, additionally. To me it does V-I, to some kind of I, literal tonic chord. Solid literal tonic chord.
Comparatively little in 'rock music' will be tonal, at least in a meaningful sense to me.
So there is a wide gulf I think between 'tonal' and 'atonal'. I mean, a whole lot of music that's really neither.
"atonal" has to at the least mean few full-on musicians could tell you where I is, at all. IME.
As per my words above, I don't think that's enough, because consensus will tend to be problematic.
I don't know, the 4th section of Alien Orifice, I bet there are people that can look at it and analyze it kind of like you'd analyze Hugo Wolf or late Wagner, with Roman numbers and a lot of secondary (even third level) function. Someone here tried to argue some totally typical serial Webern contained chords, for that matter.
So. What does it all mean. I found some of the This Heat, even where there is a single repeated bass note to be 'atonal' because the rest of it can't really be analyzable as to 'I' or harmony, even. And that 'tonic' in the looser sense is kind of clouded in dissonance to boot.
It's been probably more than 4 decades since I listened to Echoes but I do doubt there's anything atonal in it.
Says who? More importantly WHY?harryupbabble wrote:Supposedly, Echoes by Pink Floyd is atonal music (I don't believe it).
Edit: on second listen the second half of Echoes could be atonal music but the first half doesn't sound atonal to me but of course I could be wrong.
I don't very much believe in the word 'atonal', actually.
Schönberg, the inventor of serial dodecaphony (unless I missed something) found that the goal was kind of unattainable in the end and wound up to write music accordingly.
'tonal' music to me carries a limited meaning. There is quite a bit of it in pop music of today, and what I've been exposed to is all in C Major, additionally. To me it does V-I, to some kind of I, literal tonic chord. Solid literal tonic chord.
Comparatively little in 'rock music' will be tonal, at least in a meaningful sense to me.
So there is a wide gulf I think between 'tonal' and 'atonal'. I mean, a whole lot of music that's really neither.
"atonal" has to at the least mean few full-on musicians could tell you where I is, at all. IME.
As per my words above, I don't think that's enough, because consensus will tend to be problematic.
I don't know, the 4th section of Alien Orifice, I bet there are people that can look at it and analyze it kind of like you'd analyze Hugo Wolf or late Wagner, with Roman numbers and a lot of secondary (even third level) function. Someone here tried to argue some totally typical serial Webern contained chords, for that matter.
So. What does it all mean. I found some of the This Heat, even where there is a single repeated bass note to be 'atonal' because the rest of it can't really be analyzable as to 'I' or harmony, even. And that 'tonic' in the looser sense is kind of clouded in dissonance to boot.
It's been probably more than 4 decades since I listened to Echoes but I do doubt there's anything atonal in it.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 7001 posts since 20 Mar, 2012 from Babbleon
I don't know why it was moved to here either. I'm usually just a lurker here at the music theory forum. I don't think I have ever started a thread here. I'm usually just a Off Topic and Everything Else poster. I have no budget to buy stuff and not much possessions to sell at the other threads.
Okay my limited understanding of tonal music is: if there are tensions and releases then it is tonal music. It's probably how the general public would define it: "If I like it then it can't be atonal music and therefore it has to be tonal music." I know it's probably not the way to go but I am more of the general public that way. And it's not like I'm a decent musician nor decent music-maker. I just go by... keep those notes, reject those notes.
And my limited understanding and perhaps very wrong definition of atonal music is: music that is either all tension or all release. It doesn't go home. It hangs.
I forgot what website declared Echoes as atonal music. The second half of Echoes do sound "ambient-like" though. It doesn't sound like rock music to me nor pop. Speaking of which, I am off to try to make some. Maybe not pop, maybe not rock. Most likely tonal though, my idea of tonal at least. Tension/release. The simple stuff. And in vain probably, as usual, since "simple" is difficult to me. Okey dokey, bye for now.
Okay my limited understanding of tonal music is: if there are tensions and releases then it is tonal music. It's probably how the general public would define it: "If I like it then it can't be atonal music and therefore it has to be tonal music." I know it's probably not the way to go but I am more of the general public that way. And it's not like I'm a decent musician nor decent music-maker. I just go by... keep those notes, reject those notes.
And my limited understanding and perhaps very wrong definition of atonal music is: music that is either all tension or all release. It doesn't go home. It hangs.
I forgot what website declared Echoes as atonal music. The second half of Echoes do sound "ambient-like" though. It doesn't sound like rock music to me nor pop. Speaking of which, I am off to try to make some. Maybe not pop, maybe not rock. Most likely tonal though, my idea of tonal at least. Tension/release. The simple stuff. And in vain probably, as usual, since "simple" is difficult to me. Okey dokey, bye for now.
ah böwakawa poussé poussé
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I took LSD a... few times to Echoes.
I had experienced some avant-garde and relatively dissonant things by then, and Echoes is just not really tension-packed in my recollection.
'all release' is impossible by definition. There are some things I think with little release available.
Look, 'atonal' is a technical term really. While I argue 'tonal' is pretty strict, it's debatable of course. I mean, bop and derivation of that kind of idea is functional*, but for me too much movement kind of stretches 'tonal'...
(*: ii-V-I all over the place)
When I mention Arnold S finding his goal - of essentially a total democracy of tones, no center - not entirely feasible
that would I think have something to do with the nature of instruments... and the facts of acoustics on planet earth and the fact of our conditioning. And that we want to make sense of the insensible, so our minds will play certain tricks to this end.
I did two exercises in this... in particular I found that in ending the thing, that sort of hypothesis was maybe borne out, even if few hear it that way.
Yeah, this is crazy talk. I don't hear it myself now.
I had experienced some avant-garde and relatively dissonant things by then, and Echoes is just not really tension-packed in my recollection.
'all release' is impossible by definition. There are some things I think with little release available.
Look, 'atonal' is a technical term really. While I argue 'tonal' is pretty strict, it's debatable of course. I mean, bop and derivation of that kind of idea is functional*, but for me too much movement kind of stretches 'tonal'...
(*: ii-V-I all over the place)
When I mention Arnold S finding his goal - of essentially a total democracy of tones, no center - not entirely feasible
that would I think have something to do with the nature of instruments... and the facts of acoustics on planet earth and the fact of our conditioning. And that we want to make sense of the insensible, so our minds will play certain tricks to this end.
I did two exercises in this... in particular I found that in ending the thing, that sort of hypothesis was maybe borne out, even if few hear it that way.
Yeah, this is crazy talk. I don't hear it myself now.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I think the triangle for the last sonority bent my mind a little at some point. I wouldna want to name that 'chord' tho
I find her voice, rather romantic, lending to this lyrical aspect of Webern
bearing out the difficulty of 12-tone. (contrast Phylis Bryn-Julson singing Varèse; a little more objective)
the nylon-string guitar is nice and dry for such purpose.
While 12 equal to the octave carries, to my view anyway, the logical conclusion of 12-tone music, even the piano has a rich overtones aspect. And we don't really wanna hear some abstractly-constructed no harmonics instrument, as unnatural and unattractive. This is a little bit less our reality in digital-land than it once was I guess.
Interesting performancerp314 wrote: And Webern... 3 Songs
I find her voice, rather romantic, lending to this lyrical aspect of Webern
bearing out the difficulty of 12-tone. (contrast Phylis Bryn-Julson singing Varèse; a little more objective)
the nylon-string guitar is nice and dry for such purpose.
While 12 equal to the octave carries, to my view anyway, the logical conclusion of 12-tone music, even the piano has a rich overtones aspect. And we don't really wanna hear some abstractly-constructed no harmonics instrument, as unnatural and unattractive. This is a little bit less our reality in digital-land than it once was I guess.
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- KVRian
- 1297 posts since 23 Jun, 2007 from Findlay OH USA
Greetings,
Schoenberg's Op.19 for piano :
And the monodrama Erwartung :
Not pop/rock, not 12-tone, and not functionally tonal.
@rp314 - I love those Webern songs. Well, just about anything by Webern works for me.
Best,
dp
Schoenberg's Op.19 for piano :
And the monodrama Erwartung :
Not pop/rock, not 12-tone, and not functionally tonal.
@rp314 - I love those Webern songs. Well, just about anything by Webern works for me.
Best,
dp
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- KVRAF
- 37411 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Yes Webern's songs are fantastic, also I love Berg and Schoeberg's Pierrot Lunaire (with the right singer, eg Jane Manning or Jan DeGaetani)
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- KVRian
- 549 posts since 9 Aug, 2005 from USA
I think atonal dark ambient is rare, it does exist but haven't hear a ton of it.AsPeeXXXVIII wrote:I like to think of dark ambient as a prime example of atonal music - or better yet, noise. But then, that might be stretching the definition a tiny bit.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
hated Pierrot Lunaire first couple of times I heard it.
later I found that the performance is so crucial
interesting Arnold S Opus 19 is brought in
this is a transitional piece, pre-serial dodecaphony
while I rejected the attempt to argue chords in a particular Webern example
I can't help but notice the 'Bbm^7add2' at the beginning of #4 here
I mean that's a good example of where conventional thinking or habits dies hard.
clearly he was at the 'waning power of tonality' here... and clearly the maj. 2nds in ms.3 does the trick of going outside...
Also, too, note the tombeau to Mahler aspect in #6
later I found that the performance is so crucial
interesting Arnold S Opus 19 is brought in
this is a transitional piece, pre-serial dodecaphony
while I rejected the attempt to argue chords in a particular Webern example
I can't help but notice the 'Bbm^7add2' at the beginning of #4 here
I mean that's a good example of where conventional thinking or habits dies hard.
clearly he was at the 'waning power of tonality' here... and clearly the maj. 2nds in ms.3 does the trick of going outside...
Also, too, note the tombeau to Mahler aspect in #6