Sound cards
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Joxer the Mighty Joxer the Mighty https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4414
- KVRist
- 282 posts since 1 Nov, 2002
I have a CW Audio Pulsar card and use the effects all the time. The quality is excellent, if you're using something like Fruity's effects, it's not even close. And of course, they don't drain your cpu. Even with today's fast computers you'll still run into some soft synths that can eat up your cpu power rather quickly. Tassman comes to mind. And if you're someone who relies mainly on softsynths, as opposed to recorded audio, you'll appreciate being able to run effects without chipping away at cpu resources.What are you using any sound cards onboard effects in these days of fast computers?
Yeah sure, in case they are of exceedingly great quality... but are they?
In all other cases I prefer native processing (without any routing hassle, offline bouncing and what not), even if it was for total recall only. I am permanently running my songs on different systems, so using sound card effects would add nothing but pain.
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- KVRAF
- 20941 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
I'm afraid your reference may be skewed, the Digi 001 is a bad sounding interface.maxlef wrote:I have an Audiophile and a Digi001, and the Audiophile sounds like sh*t regarding the Digi001.
The E-mu 1212M uses the same converters as are found in Digidesign's $4k 192HD interface & is easily the best sounding card available in this price range. The Audiophile may have been a great deal back when it was released but you'd be doing yourself a disservice by choosing one over an E-mu these days.
If you really want the best possible sound quality, look into getting a Lynx L22.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I have to admit, in this thread is the first hands-on report I've even heard of the Emu 0404. It's new enough that nobody seems to have bought it yet. 
As a result, who's to say how the onboard effects are? I listened to the website demos, and the effects were... hmmm... usable at best. Also, they can only be processed at certain sample rates (44.1 and 48 if I remember right).
Regardless, even if you forget about the effects, it has well-specced converters and the company has a fairly solid rep, so it'd be a wortwhile investment.
Whoever said the Audiophile 2496 has crap converters has fooled themselves, as the converters are as good or better than any other card in this class. You have to remember diminishing returns, too. You might read on paper that one card has an SNR of -106dB and another has -107dB, but if you can really -hear- that difference, I have a hundred dollar bill for ya.
On top of that, with either the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile, you will be needing an external mixer for the pres, which in almost all cases will have enough noise (still very little) to render the card's own noise ratio fairly irrelevant.
Anyhow, that was to nobody in particular-- and to you, axedog, I would recommend EITHER the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile 2496, along with a small mixer.
Greg
As a result, who's to say how the onboard effects are? I listened to the website demos, and the effects were... hmmm... usable at best. Also, they can only be processed at certain sample rates (44.1 and 48 if I remember right).
Regardless, even if you forget about the effects, it has well-specced converters and the company has a fairly solid rep, so it'd be a wortwhile investment.
Whoever said the Audiophile 2496 has crap converters has fooled themselves, as the converters are as good or better than any other card in this class. You have to remember diminishing returns, too. You might read on paper that one card has an SNR of -106dB and another has -107dB, but if you can really -hear- that difference, I have a hundred dollar bill for ya.
On top of that, with either the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile, you will be needing an external mixer for the pres, which in almost all cases will have enough noise (still very little) to render the card's own noise ratio fairly irrelevant.
Anyhow, that was to nobody in particular-- and to you, axedog, I would recommend EITHER the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile 2496, along with a small mixer.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 20941 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Converter quality isn't just about snr & I'm confident that most people would hear the difference between an Audiophile & an L22 or 1212M. Besides, we're talking about the difference of -100db (Audiophile) vs. -120db (1212M) which is HUGE.Lunch Money wrote:You might read on paper that one card has an SNR of -106dB and another has -107dB, but if you can really -hear- that difference...
Not to pick on you, but why would you get a mixer just for the pre's? Even the M-Audio DMP3 pre will outperform the pre's built in to most sub-$1000 console & many sequencers these days have all the mixing functions that most people would need built-in. The E-mu, Lynx, & Creamware cards have dsp that can handle mixing duties in real-time, too.On top of that, with either the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile, you will be needing an external mixer for the pres, which in almost all cases will have enough noise (still very little) to render the card's own noise ratio fairly irrelevant.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
the question I have is, are the onboard fx capable of being monitored without printing the fx to the track? If so then they would be useable IMHO just to reduce cpu usage while recording. 
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I can answer both those questions very easily--Uncle E wrote:Converter quality isn't just about snr & I'm confident that most people would hear the difference between an Audiophile & an L22 or 1212M. Besides, we're talking about the difference of -100db (Audiophile) vs. -120db (1212M) which is HUGE.Lunch Money wrote:You might read on paper that one card has an SNR of -106dB and another has -107dB, but if you can really -hear- that difference...
Not to pick on you, but why would you get a mixer just for the pre's? Even the M-Audio DMP3 pre will outperform the pre's built in to most sub-$1000 console & many sequencers these days have all the mixing functions that most people would need built-in. The E-mu, Lynx, & Creamware cards have dsp that can handle mixing duties in real-time, too.On top of that, with either the Emu 0404 or the Audiophile, you will be needing an external mixer for the pres, which in almost all cases will have enough noise (still very little) to render the card's own noise ratio fairly irrelevant.
Budget.
I could come up with a million alternatives... and besides, the EMU being compared is the 0404.
Don't worry, I don't feel picked on... I just think that your stats and your recommendations are taking you outside of the sphere of being able to relate to a suggestion that meets the original poster's needs.
[edit]Ack, and I missed a point--
You're not getting the mixer for the pre's... you're getting the mixer because you NEED PRES. The Audiophile and EMU-404 don't have any. No mixing software in the world is going to help if you don't get a signal into the card!]
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 20941 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
The 1212M is $199, isn't that level of quality is worth a $50 jump from the Audiophile? The snr of the 0404 is 111db which is still a very large & very hearable difference.
I'm still not understanding your point on a mixer. Why not just get a dedicated preamp like the M-Audio DMP3 that can then be plugged directly into the Audiophile, 0404, or whatever? It's rare that a console preamp sounds as good as a dedicated preamp & the preamps found in all sub-$500 mixers are terrible.
I'm still not understanding your point on a mixer. Why not just get a dedicated preamp like the M-Audio DMP3 that can then be plugged directly into the Audiophile, 0404, or whatever? It's rare that a console preamp sounds as good as a dedicated preamp & the preamps found in all sub-$500 mixers are terrible.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Aha! In that case, it was MY misunderstanding. You're right that a dedicated preamp at the right budget should to the trick just as well. [edit: or better] I never use the mixing functions of my mixer.
I have to admit, I didn't get off my arse to research, so I may have been overly critical, in which case I apologize. I didn't realize the 1212 was only $199
. I guess we all need a lesson in humility from time to time, and I've just had mine!
That said, the Audiophile can be had for less than $100US... making the 1212 twice the price. Which, depending on your budget, is still enough to think twice. It is rock-solid, has beautiful sound quality, and has been tried and tested in any number of DAW configurations, proving to be a winner in almost every case. It's certainly not a card to be dismissed.
Greg
I have to admit, I didn't get off my arse to research, so I may have been overly critical, in which case I apologize. I didn't realize the 1212 was only $199
. I guess we all need a lesson in humility from time to time, and I've just had mine!That said, the Audiophile can be had for less than $100US... making the 1212 twice the price. Which, depending on your budget, is still enough to think twice. It is rock-solid, has beautiful sound quality, and has been tried and tested in any number of DAW configurations, proving to be a winner in almost every case. It's certainly not a card to be dismissed.
Greg
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- KVRer
- 19 posts since 4 Jan, 2004
FYI - The Audiophile is only $99 now at www.zzounds.com
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- KVRAF
- 13446 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
There's more use to a mixer than just using the preamp section, at least for me there is.
I have all the 4 signals I usually record at home (VAmp, bass D.I., Rode mic, acoustic PU output) permanently running into the mixer.
Want to record something? Sure, grab the instrument in question, turn up the appropriate pre-fader send (which I'm using to feed one input) and record away.
Want some send FX for monitoring pleasure? Sure, turn up the "normal" post-fader send (which is running into input #2, usually feeding some FX channel).
In addition, the outputs of the soundcard are running into it as well (actually the outputs of 2 soundcards), so this is great for overall monitoring level adjustment without fooling around with the mouse.
I wouldn't want to work without such comfort anymore.
Sure, a dedicated channel strip is a nice thing, but I'd certainly get it in addition only, not as a single item to feed all my stuff into the machine.
Apart from that, they have just been dropping prices for both Mackie's 1202 and 1402 VLZ PRO mixers at thomann.de (325 Euro for the 1202, which is a killer price) - those have excellent pre's on them as well, in case you don't need any sophisticated EQ or compression. Dynamic, low noise and neutral, just what the doctor ordered.
I have all the 4 signals I usually record at home (VAmp, bass D.I., Rode mic, acoustic PU output) permanently running into the mixer.
Want to record something? Sure, grab the instrument in question, turn up the appropriate pre-fader send (which I'm using to feed one input) and record away.
Want some send FX for monitoring pleasure? Sure, turn up the "normal" post-fader send (which is running into input #2, usually feeding some FX channel).
In addition, the outputs of the soundcard are running into it as well (actually the outputs of 2 soundcards), so this is great for overall monitoring level adjustment without fooling around with the mouse.
I wouldn't want to work without such comfort anymore.
Sure, a dedicated channel strip is a nice thing, but I'd certainly get it in addition only, not as a single item to feed all my stuff into the machine.
Apart from that, they have just been dropping prices for both Mackie's 1202 and 1402 VLZ PRO mixers at thomann.de (325 Euro for the 1202, which is a killer price) - those have excellent pre's on them as well, in case you don't need any sophisticated EQ or compression. Dynamic, low noise and neutral, just what the doctor ordered.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 20941 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Sascha, a patch bay or passive input selector would give you that same immediacy without the noise of running your instruments through the mixer. Even pro studios record their preamps direct in, bypassing their SSL's completely. Also, the E-mu & Creamware mixers have aux sends that you can patch effects to.
Hink, I just tried it now & found out that, yes, you can record using effects without printing them. The way it works is there is the asio or wav inputs are on sends (identically to the situation Sascha was just describing, oddly enough) so you simply need to place it in the first send slot before the effects. You could also place it at the end of the chain to record the effects or anywhere in the middle of the chain in case, for example, you'd like to print the distortion but not the reverb.
Hink, I just tried it now & found out that, yes, you can record using effects without printing them. The way it works is there is the asio or wav inputs are on sends (identically to the situation Sascha was just describing, oddly enough) so you simply need to place it in the first send slot before the effects. You could also place it at the end of the chain to record the effects or anywhere in the middle of the chain in case, for example, you'd like to print the distortion but not the reverb.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Of all the FX on the EMU 0404 that they had examples of, the distortion was the most horrible. Some of the others were usable, though, and at the exact same price as an Audiophile, you don't even have to use the effects to have a good card for the money.
I'd be curious about stability and compatibility, though, in such a new card. I heard ONE passing comment that there have been problems, but not from any sort of professional or reliable source. I wonder.
Greg
I'd be curious about stability and compatibility, though, in such a new card. I heard ONE passing comment that there have been problems, but not from any sort of professional or reliable source. I wonder.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 13446 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I know, Eric, but that still doesn't render the comfort of having a mixer useless.Uncle E wrote:Sascha, a patch bay or passive input selector would give you that same immediacy without the noise of running your instruments through the mixer. Even pro studios record their preamps direct in, bypassing their SSL's completely. Also, the E-mu & Creamware mixers have aux sends that you can patch effects to.
Let alone the fact that a dedicated channel strip (a good sounding one that is) easily exceedcs the cost of a lot of quite reasonable small mixers.
OK, M-Audio's DMP3 looks like a reasonable choice, but then, it has no A/D converters, so you'd still need proper converters.
Í still think that for some home studio setup you can't go that wrong with a reasonable soundcard (be it an Audiophile or anything better) and some small Mackie mixer (I mean, it's not just been for a joke that their pre's have been used as some sort of neutral reference in a longwinded mic pre test of the german "Keyboards" mag).
Small, convenient and good sounding!
Personally I'd only get a dedicated channel strip once I sorted the monitoring and mixing issues out.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 20941 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
While I'm totally perplexed as to how this is relevant (you'll need converters when using a Mackie 1202, too, right?), this does remind me to mention the new Alesis USB mixers. For $150, they've got an 8-channel mixer with effects & a usb interface so that no soundcard is needed between it & the computer. I still think the E-mu cards would be a much better way to go but this is a pretty neat all-in-one solution.Sascha Franck wrote:OK, M-Audio's DMP3 looks like a reasonable choice, but then, it has no A/D converters, so you'd still need proper converters.
btw, channel strips are great but I personally don't think they're very necessary these days with the quality of plug-ins we have available. I prefer to focus my money on getting the best preamp/DI possible & then use UAD-1 plug-ins for compression & EQ.